What happened in Manchester Hole yesterday?
- Thread starter graham
- Start date
M
Mine Explorer
Guest
I don't know anything about it, but try this BBC Report on the incident.
AndyF
New member
Things like this are such a tragedy, not only for the family concerned but also because it makes LEA's shy away from outdoor activity due to the risk.
I remember being taken to Dovedale with my school, it left such an impression that it led me to becoming a caver/climber.
I don't know the circumstances of this yet, but Manchester Hole is quite notorious in flood, but normally is a relatively easy cave. It was, co-incidently (with Goyden) , my very first cave...
I remember being taken to Dovedale with my school, it left such an impression that it led me to becoming a caver/climber.
I don't know the circumstances of this yet, but Manchester Hole is quite notorious in flood, but normally is a relatively easy cave. It was, co-incidently (with Goyden) , my very first cave...
M
MSD
Guest
Manchester Hole is indeed a nasty number in wet weather. Exact water conditions depend on how the flood debris in the river bed is directing the water. A rise in water can shift the debris and you can get a sudden and unexpected flood pulse into the cave. If that wasn't bad enough, the water flows from the output sluice of a resevoir - if the sluice opens then big trouble is just around the corner.
There is coverage in the Independent as well.
There is coverage in the Independent as well.
newcastlecaver
New member
we went to nidderdale a couple of weeks ago and did manchester, goyden and new goyden, the reservoir at Scarhouse is pretty low at the moment but there is always evidence of serious flooding in there, condolances to all involved
D
diggerdog adam
Guest
First of all, how sad this really is a young life taken in such a fun and enjoyable cave my heart gos out to all concerned family, rescuers, Paramedics and not forgeting the leader who took them under ground.
I would like to add that this is my local cave net work and i am sure that people that know the system all have the great respect for for the under ground network of passages after all the goyden/manchester system is a active river cave.
At this point i would also like to add that i work with a guy whos daughter was in the party where the incident happened with out going in to too much detail it would seem that the media reports at this time seem to have been reported correcelty
Any one who caves this area will be aware of certain things to check and the center are allways on the ball on this one making the checks as part of the whole exercise so the groups are aware of what is involed before even putting any kit on and under no cercumstaces would have gone underground if water levels were suspect.
i know that there will be a great investigations into what happened and lets hope it doesnt get controversal but a number of yaers ago i had a close call in the system with dry settled weather after a week or two of rain we made the checks and no water was in the stream bed the dam was about 4ft below the overflows but after about an hour water came pouring in experence told us to make a hasty retreate when we came out we were some what baffled so after getting changed we took a ride up to the dam only to find that the gale that was now blowing was wipping up huge waves which were crashing down the dam wall !
I dont know the facts but what im trying to get over some thing as a change in the wind could affect a perfectly safe days caving
I would like to add that this is my local cave net work and i am sure that people that know the system all have the great respect for for the under ground network of passages after all the goyden/manchester system is a active river cave.
At this point i would also like to add that i work with a guy whos daughter was in the party where the incident happened with out going in to too much detail it would seem that the media reports at this time seem to have been reported correcelty
Any one who caves this area will be aware of certain things to check and the center are allways on the ball on this one making the checks as part of the whole exercise so the groups are aware of what is involed before even putting any kit on and under no cercumstaces would have gone underground if water levels were suspect.
i know that there will be a great investigations into what happened and lets hope it doesnt get controversal but a number of yaers ago i had a close call in the system with dry settled weather after a week or two of rain we made the checks and no water was in the stream bed the dam was about 4ft below the overflows but after about an hour water came pouring in experence told us to make a hasty retreate when we came out we were some what baffled so after getting changed we took a ride up to the dam only to find that the gale that was now blowing was wipping up huge waves which were crashing down the dam wall !
I dont know the facts but what im trying to get over some thing as a change in the wind could affect a perfectly safe days caving
M
MSD
Guest
Looks like the high wind theory is a likely explanation. According to Yorkshire Post there were 50mph winds that afternoon. Somebody took a picture of the waves breaking over the dam, and reported "large quantities" of water pouring into the Nidd.
A shift in the wind could have caught the party by surprise. To be honest, I wouldn't have thought of that particular danger myself.
A shift in the wind could have caught the party by surprise. To be honest, I wouldn't have thought of that particular danger myself.
newcastlecaver
New member
it is mentioned in northern caves as a specific risk (Reservoir) but I was there three weeks ago and the water was about 12ft below the lip of the arches and I considered that to mean there was no risk of wind induced overflow, perhaps I was mistaken, I honestly couldn't imagine the water flowing over the top then but it obviously has.
Theres been a lot of rain in the last three weeks so water levels would have been a fair bit higher than when you saw it I would imagine.
As digdog says 4ft and strong winds is enough to cause problems..
Wind/water levels should be taken into account, although 12ft would need some pretty hefty gusts to get it over..
Stu
Active member
A word of caution!
Today's Mirror quoted "expert caver, Jack Nadin" as saying in a newsletter "the system floods drastically. It is also not unknown for flood debris to block passages." Where did this venerable organ get the quote...
Do like I did (and they did) Google Burnley Caving Club; Jack Nadin; Manchester Hole!! Anything to stir up some doom and gloom eh? F**king 6th Form journalism homework at it's worst. Let's find a quote to fit the bill.
Be careful what we say... remember Mexico.
Today's Mirror quoted "expert caver, Jack Nadin" as saying in a newsletter "the system floods drastically. It is also not unknown for flood debris to block passages." Where did this venerable organ get the quote...
Do like I did (and they did) Google Burnley Caving Club; Jack Nadin; Manchester Hole!! Anything to stir up some doom and gloom eh? F**king 6th Form journalism homework at it's worst. Let's find a quote to fit the bill.
Be careful what we say... remember Mexico.
D
diggerdog adam
Guest
Reporters eh!
Wolfart
New member
Be careful what we say... remember Mexico.
My thoughts go out to the family,adventure center,instructors and all concerned with the rescue.
The meida are watching as for the PRESS in my experiance they dwell on the tragedy and are all to ready to blame somebody instead of getting the truth.Wont say no more, dont want to get into the politics.
Again my and other cavers thoughts go out to those involved
My thoughts go out to the family,adventure center,instructors and all concerned with the rescue.
The meida are watching as for the PRESS in my experiance they dwell on the tragedy and are all to ready to blame somebody instead of getting the truth.Wont say no more, dont want to get into the politics.
Again my and other cavers thoughts go out to those involved
AndyF
New member
You can bet that this newsgroup is also being googled and viewed by journo's, so watch what you say here guys.
Now, close you eyes cavers, this is just for journo's..
"Regular caver, Andy F says that (most) journo's are a bunch of mindless, parasitic, sh***s making money out of others misery"
Now, close you eyes cavers, this is just for journo's..
"Regular caver, Andy F says that (most) journo's are a bunch of mindless, parasitic, sh***s making money out of others misery"
Sewer Rat
New member
I read the mirror report and they didnt realy dramatise things too much.
Ok there was that quote mentioned by Stu. but that was it.
there was nothing really there hyping up the story .
Nothing realy damaging to caving.
Just as it was
A tragic accident , that is probaly nobodys fault.
Ok there was that quote mentioned by Stu. but that was it.
there was nothing really there hyping up the story .
Nothing realy damaging to caving.
Just as it was
A tragic accident , that is probaly nobodys fault.
D
darkplaces
Guest
Maybe when they do these features they should pull out some stats relating to accidents per year in caving when compared to driving, walking, looking after pets.
Only by comparing things can the general public understand the scale of risk.
Currently the less informed public just see caving, death tombe, freezing, alone, crawl all lumped together and dont have a clue about the many trips were nothing much really happens.
Some balanced reporting is very much lacking, ok so caving has its dangers but so does everything.
You will NEVER EVER in anyones lifetime prevent accidents from ever happening again.
Only by comparing things can the general public understand the scale of risk.
Currently the less informed public just see caving, death tombe, freezing, alone, crawl all lumped together and dont have a clue about the many trips were nothing much really happens.
Some balanced reporting is very much lacking, ok so caving has its dangers but so does everything.
You will NEVER EVER in anyones lifetime prevent accidents from ever happening again.
Stu
Active member
Sewer Rat said:
Agreed generally. The quote wasn't a quote by an expert caver though. It was taken verbatim and out of context of the rest of the article to suit a particular piece i.e. that somehow this cave perhaps shouldn't be used. Was B.C.C. or Jack Nadin approached? The piece done on ITV was fairly considered.
langcliffe
Well-known member
stu said:
That quote originates from http://www.braemoor.co.uk/cavingtrip/route17.shtml, and was lifted by the Burnley Caving Club newsletter.
A
Andi Turner
Guest
Hi,
Has any further news emerged as to what actually happened yet. So far there only seems to be speculation and media hype. I used to work at Bewerley and therefore know Manchester well, it was pretty much a weekly trip. What I don't seem to be able to understand is how everyone else got out completely fine except for the poor lad? Was it that the rescue didn't begin until the rest of the group were out, or were they involved at an earlier stage?
Deepest condolences to all involved, family, friends and instructors.
Andi
Has any further news emerged as to what actually happened yet. So far there only seems to be speculation and media hype. I used to work at Bewerley and therefore know Manchester well, it was pretty much a weekly trip. What I don't seem to be able to understand is how everyone else got out completely fine except for the poor lad? Was it that the rescue didn't begin until the rest of the group were out, or were they involved at an earlier stage?
Deepest condolences to all involved, family, friends and instructors.
Andi
