Nothing more than an extension to a pub chat... so no getting knickers too much in a twist!


You're in a cave that is off the "tourist" honey spots. Something different and esoteric. Pitches are mentioned in what very brief detail can be found in the guide book. You (quite fortuitously in the circumstances!!) have your bolting kit and hammer because what once were Spits are just old twisted bits of threaded metal.


Would you bolt or not?

id say go for it.

if there were no good natural and 'one happened to have ones bolting kit', yep - why not?

If bolting it is the only way of getting down and theres no naturals, yes! You say there were once spits - had once why not again, as long as the old ones are completely knackered and unusable.

The Masked Hobit said:

if there were no good natural and 'one happened to have ones bolting kit', yep - why not?

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Yes,, sorry. In our fictitious cave there are no naturals.

Why not? That's the question!!! 

stu said:

Pitches are mentioned in what very brief detail can be found in the guide book. You (quite fortuitously in the circumstances!!) have your bolting kit and hammer because what once were Spits are just old twisted bits of threaded metal.

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Fairly unrealistic, surely. I imagine it's far more likely that this scenario would arise:

Hear about part of a cave which few people bother to visit anymore.
Go and visit it and find that the pitch has no usable spits. Don't bother reporting it to the regional caving council for consideration as a bolting location `cos you want to keep it hush-hush (for good/OK/no reason).
Go and visit it again, but this time take a bolting kit so that bolts can be placed.
Place bolts.
Subsequently come up with a morally justifiable and plausible sounding reason why new bolts have been placed rather than going through the established channels (which, frankly, would probably have had few objections anyway!).

An alternate view. Good, good.

Resin bolt it properly - its not that hard to do

No, don't rebolt it, just scratch a willy on the wall and run off.






No no no no, don't do that, it is very very bad.

Anne said:

No, don't rebolt it, just scratch a willy on the wall and run off.






No no no no, don't do that, it is very very bad.

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I could then come along and video someone cleaning it off 
I say bolt, but only if you know how, use the right kit then all the paperwork can be done after.  :tease:

Interesting split so far.

Ok... wait for the regional body to do. Seems reasonable. How long to wait? And what if the scrappy piece of cave that has somehow got under your skin, isn't deemed worthy of the expenditure? How does this fit in with prospecting new cave? Does or should every new lead be put before the councils?

Resin bolt it. Again reasonable. Though it's not in the tradition of prospecting/renewing long forgotten cave.

It'd have to be done properly and in that there is no guarantee. So best left to the experts eh? Isn't the danger that a useful skill is lost through lack of practice? Or is that sacrifice worth it so we don't have wall after wall chipped away by people who can't be bothered to spot the in-situ bolt above/behind there heads?

Bolting would personally short-term convenient

Getting it P Hangered would benefit the long term caving community

You choose 

stu said:

Interesting split so far.

Ok... wait for the regional body to do. Seems reasonable. How long to wait? And what if the scrappy piece of cave that has somehow got under your skin, isn't deemed worthy of the expenditure? How does this fit in with prospecting new cave? Does or should every new lead be put before the councils?

Resin bolt it. Again reasonable. Though it's not in the tradition of prospecting/renewing long forgotten cave.

It'd have to be done properly and in that there is no guarantee. So best left to the experts eh? Isn't the danger that a useful skill is lost through lack of practice? Or is that sacrifice worth it so we don't have wall after wall chipped away by people who can't be bothered to spot the in-situ bolt above/behind there heads?

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I am quite sure that if this lead were that good, the RCC would be flexible enough to give an "executive" OK quite quickly, especially that given that the cave has gotten under your skin you are prepared to cough the (not very large) expense.

how about bolting it with expansion bolts rather than Spits?
Aparently the stock of DMM P hangers is running out. either DMM need to do another batch or use a Petzl resin anchor.

Cave_Troll said:

how about bolting it with expansion bolts rather than Spits?
Aparently the stock of DMM P hangers is running out. either DMM need to do another batch or use a Petzl resin anchor.

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And, as long as the hole was initially drilled too deep, if the screw thread goes on it it can be smacked in and made to look relatively unobvious.

If you are happy resin bolting it then that sounds ok to me. The point being IMHO to put a long life hanger in of some sort, rather than a normal spit that just gets worn out over time and risks bolt rash.

Compared to the visual intrusion cause by most prospecting/digging (scaff, planks, pipes, trays etc.) I think the bolt visuals thing can be over egged a bit.

I'm less worried about making it look unobtrusive and more worried about long term affect of drilling lots of holes in the rock at a pitch head.
after a while there may be no "good" rock left.
if you've overdrilled a bolt hole, bashed the expansion bolt in and covered the hole with a bit of mud, then when someone else comes along to rebolt the pitch, the may put a new bolt in 2cm away from your bolt that they can't see.

Aye, once a bolt is in that whole area of rock is done for forever. As far as the visual aspect is concerned, most digging kit will be removed once the dig is over (won't it  :ang: ) unless it is support such as scaffolding & as far as that is concerned I don't tend to linger in loose chokes to admire the view!

We aren't talking about original exploration here - the original question mentioned the guide book description!

If the passage has been investigated before and there was no possibilty of free-climbing, then the original investigators probably used ropes. If there is no evidence of previously-placed anchors then you are probably missing naturals and are not used to having to look for them.

If there are old knackered anchors, then lets try and not repeat past mistakes and learn from the past: don't just add yet more anchors probably not in the best postion, which means others in turn wil add yet more - and these will in turn become old an knackered...

Re placing resin bolts. At least in the Peak (my area so I'm not referring to other regions but I'm sure the practice is similar), these are placed in consultation with the RCC (the DCA).

This has many benefits:
The DCA pay for them (~ £5 per bolt).
They are placed by "certified" installers so they are covered by insurance should there be a resulting claim due to failure(an aspect often overlooked).
Each and every placement is recorded with a unique ID and regulary tested and inspected (~300 bolts have undergone test and inspection recently in the Peak - none have failed and some have been in place for 10+ years).

So, if anchors need to be installed to replace old ones in known cave, then it is probably best to go down the RCC route...

Original exploration on the other hand I would tend to favour spits if there are no natural anchors and if the route goes anywhere then request the RCC to install resin anchors.

Yes, the DCA scheme is v.good and a credit to those who do the legwork..   

I suppose in this case it depends if the particular RCC think the location warrents the effort. If it is an obscure location it may not be considered a "worthwhile" one.

The insurance aspect is worth considering. No one worrried about it thirty years ago when the original bolts were being placed in caves (times have changed). I've placed bolts when pushing/exploring (or was it me, you know I can't remember the name of the person who actually placed them can't think who would be liable. Must have been the bolt fairies... )