Tunnels under Kirkby Stephen; request for help

Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
There are various artificial tunnels mined in the brockram rock beneath the town centre in Kirkby Stephen in Cumbria, just north of the main Dales caving area. No-one really seems to know much about their history, although there are anecdotal tales about them being constructed to move beer barrels from breweries to pubs below ground, to avoid customs and excise duty!

Can anyone shed any light on these tunnels? In particular I'd like to find out about their age, main purposes and mining methods (as there seems to be no evidence of old shotholes). Are there any contemporary written references? If anyone can help in any way please can you send a PM and I will pas on all information to a lady who is doing historical research about these tunnels.

Thanks.
 
Matt

Matt

Member
Yeah right - as we believe that rubbish!

But check this out...

Kendal's Dark Secret



(It's been a long time coming to youtube - apologies if you witnessed this lark the first time around!)

Please respond sensibly to Pitlamps original request! ;)

 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
;) ;) ;)

NOW I understand your avatar!
If there's owt like that under Kirkby Stephen we'll be extremely pleased.

Seriously though, these tunnels do seem to be shrouded in mystery and we really don't know anything about them. So if anyone can help, please do.
 
braveduck

braveduck

Active member
One of our members lives in Kirkby Stephen and does know of the tunnels.
He heard this lady was investigating them and offerd to take some photographs for her.
She never got back to him .
They are all accessed from cellers and private gardens.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Thanks BD, I'll likely contact you about this in a while. It's probably the same lady who asked me to investigate yesterday afternoon. There's a flooded shaft which we may have a go at diving at some stage. The problem is that the tunnels are well known about but no-one seems to be able to generate any contemporary references about their age, purpose(s) and construction methods, which is really what I'd like to find out about.

Can anyone help?
 
braveduck

braveduck

Active member
Well considering that Tan Hill which is quite near is surrounded by hundreds of Coal mines,I wonder if there is any connection.Either the miners lived in K.S. and liked digging or were looking for their own Coal to keep warm.
 
P

peterk

Member
No help again but isn't it common to find tunnels and cellars extending outside the property boundaries in any town with a soft sandstone (Permian?) close to the surface? - Nottingham and Stockport come to mind.

I presume the lady referenced is one of the authors of http://www.kirkby-stephen.com/in-search-of-tunnels.html. and as yet no dating evidence has been found.

The beer story could have some truth - from sometime in the 17th c home brewing was made exempt from duty so the transfer of beer to a "home" brewery may have had a financial benefit. Establishing the duty levied and at what point in the brewing process it was levied may knock the story on its head - no gain.  At various times there was duty only on the source materials - malt, hops & sugar. For about 100 years until the early 90's the duty was based on the "calculated" sugar content before fermentation. 
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
That's right Peter, it's the same lady. She has no experience of mining or any real access to people who might know more, which I why I asked the original question above - because this forum is used by a great deal of people with diverse expertise. The real hope is that someone might be able to point us at any contemporary references.
 
AndyF

AndyF

New member
Are these tunnels going to turn out to be "urban myth" like so many others...

If no one has a picture, survey, reference, access or even a specific location then I'd be inclined to dismiss the whole story. "Show me the entrance"... ;)
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
AndyF - I visited them on Friday. They certainly exist; what's missing is details of their age, history and mining methods.

Sam - thanks for that suggestion; "incumbria" was in contact with me about something else recently so I'll contact him.
 
ChrisJC

ChrisJC

Well-known member
I will forward to the Cumbria Amenity Trust Mining History Society (CATMHS) as they are both local (ish), and very knowledgable.

Chris.
 
O

owd git

Active member
Ay-up Robin .
Dolomitic conglomerate, I had thought dolomites were Mg. altered limestone, not a sedimentry /conglomerate, honestly not trying to be a knob,( or pedant as is P. C. these days) jus' interested what is your understanding?
thanks. Owd Git. 
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Rob - my understanding is that brockram is a sort of limestone breccia cemented together by a sandstone matrix. It's Permian in age. (I can't remember but I think the Wookey conglomerate is lower Carboniferous and has a slightly different origin). Brockram was formed under desert conditions from angular limestone debris (originating from the proto-Pennines) accumulating on a plain. There are some small local caves formed in this rock but the tunnels in question are not natural.
 
langcliffe

langcliffe

Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
Rob - my understanding is that brockram is a sort of limestone breccia cemented together by a sandstone matrix. It's Permian in age. (I can't remember but I think the Wookey conglomerate is lower Carboniferous and has a slightly different origin). Brockram was formed under desert conditions from angular limestone debris (originating from the proto-Pennines) accumulating on a plain.
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, it is believed that the Brockram is a fluvial deposit  formed as alluvial fans at the end of wadis under flood conditions. It consists mainly of Carboniferous limestone clasts, but Lower Palaeozoic clasts and fragments of the Whin Sill have also been found in it.
 
Maisie Syntax

Maisie Syntax

Active member
I don't personally have any more idea about these other than what has already been offered, but have asked round the usual list of local suspects for ideas.

Not come up with anything yet, but still waiting to speak with Ian Tyler (prolific author on mining in this area and overlord-in-chief at Keswick mining museum). His guide to mines in that area has 66 entries, but the nearest to that point is around 1.5 miles east.

There's a chap called Dave Carlisle (mines inspector and key mover/shaker behind Faggergil mine/caverns exploration) who lives at Bowes (just over the hill from these tunnels) who could possibly help? Don't have contact details, but you'll probably get more info to this enquiry on aditnow or mine-explorer websites?

I presume that there nothing in Moldywarps journals?
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Thanks very much In cumbria and Simon.

Langcliffe: the clasts in the brockram are very angular suggesting they haven't been transported too far by water. The idea of occasional deluges flushing out wadis under desert conditions onto a plain makes sense. It's nice to think that lousy weather over the Pennines hasn't just been reserved for our generation eh? I have a paper on the geology of Kirkby Stephen but it's out on loan at the moment. (I think I'm right in thinking that on the far i.e. east side of the Pennines there was the Zechstien Sea in Permian times - that right?)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top