Comments regarding access in the Forest of Dean

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darkplaces

Guest
I decided to boycot the FOD for allowing lawyers to control access instead of cavers. IE the Permit system and requirement to be in a club regardless of having insurence. Also for as long as Paul Taylor has anything to do with the FOD a jumped up little s&1t.

Dont mind if mod removes this post just happy to express that not everyone is happy to accept how the FOD works.
 
AndyF

AndyF

New member
c**tplaces said:
I decided to boycot the FOD for allowing lawyers to control access instead of cavers. IE the Permit system and requirement to be in a club regardless of having insurence.
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Ouch! I'm puzzled by this comment...

1) It's landowners, not caving clubs, that call the lawyers in. No club "allows" lawyers to control access..

2) Permit systems exist in lots of areas (eg the Mendips!) and this has caused lots of inconvienience to people over the years.... I think the Charterhouse was the first one in fact, and didn't lawyers draught that agreement up. There are varying requirements to all these schemes. Some need club membership, some insurance, some just notice of a visit. There is little thanks (and lots of winging) to access officers who put the time and effort in to maintain access to the caves.

3) I've always found the Forest guys very helpful and enthusiastic to welcome visitors.. and they work damn hard on their digs too...and they know how to oraganise a pi55 up too....
 
graham

graham

New member
AndyF said:
c**tplaces said:
I decided to boycot the FOD for allowing lawyers to control access instead of cavers. IE the Permit system and requirement to be in a club regardless of having insurence.
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Ouch! I'm puzzled by this comment...
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I'm not! There are far too many people who believe that they have rights to everything and no duties to anything.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
I'v spent a lot of time on this and you will find its the Forest Enterprise who directed by the lawyers call the shots. Land owners dont actually get a say nor do clubs who send out letters to anyone spotted near an unmarked entrance and even had the balls to send SARAID a letter of displeasure because they didnt ask before going into an unmarked 'hole' in the FOD to practice cave rescue.

I have found many caving clubs to be open and willing to runs trips for people invited from other areas, Mendips, Cornwall, North Wales, Cumbria are exampes of open, willing to take part in joint visits. However the FOD just seamed to put up barriers with permits and headed note paper with dates times number of people etc.

To cap it all if you take a photo of a damaged mine in the FOD get ready for a letter to be posted implying your the culprit. The FOD manage access but have stated they dont look after access points - you dont do one without the other, sorry FOD your an example of wanting all the control but non of the responsability.
 
J

Jagman

New member
Firstly I would like to say that over the last few years I have met an awful lot of Mine-Explorers and Cavers who almost without exception have been a great bunch :LOL: .
Most are willing to acknowledge different opinions and are happy to talk about different access options.
I have no desire to start the whole gating debate all over again but feel I must agree with Darkplaces comments with regard to the situation with the FoD and access there.
Thats probably as much as I'll say because I cant see discussion helping solve intransigent attitudes there.
 
AndyF

AndyF

New member
Well, maybe there is something I don't know. I haven't been there for a while, but there are loads of access systems around the country. The CNCC, Mendips, DCC for Alderley edge, Grosvener for Olwyn Goch, N.Wales for Llyn Parc, Great Orme for..er.. the Great Orme, Dan-yr-Ogof, OFD, Devon/Bakers Pit, Peak Cavern... it goes on and on. You even need permits for Gouffre Berger, and don't even start me on Spain...

Even our club dig has an access agreement These things rarely cause a problem, and a ten minute letter or a phone call usually sorts it.

I genuinely don't know what the 'problem' is in the Forest. I've never had any...
 
Ship-badger

Ship-badger

Member
Well well. Good old Darkplaces, still prattling on and on and on .......

Just for the record. Access to caves in the Forest of Dean is controlled on behalf, that's ON BEHALF, of the landowner (Forest Enterprise) by the Forest of Dean Cave Consercation and Access Group. Access is nothing to do with the Royal Forest of Dean Caving Club.

So Darkplaces and others, shut up about it on this forum. If you're not happy with the situation, and I myself wish that it were different, then please direct your comments to the relevant body (FoDCCAG).

Many thanks.
 
underground

underground

Active member
c**tplaces said:
. Also for as long as Paul Taylor has anything to do with the FOD a jumped up little s&1t.

Dont mind if mod removes this post just happy to express that not everyone is happy to accept how the FOD works.
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c**tplaces, regardless of how you feel about access in the area, and how you personally feel about Paul Taylor, it is unacceptable to insult him on this forum.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Given the immense amount of work done by Paul Taylor over decades and the huge contributions his efforts, surveying and explorations have made, Darkplaces' insult couldn't be any further off the mark if he tried. Your lack caving knowledge is letting you down, oh, JUST A LITTLE BIT....

Also, I imagine that the expression may be relevant in a vice versa case? :wink:
 
twiglet

twiglet

New member
The few times I have applied for a permit to cave in the Forest I have not had any problem.If you are a member of a caving club with PL insurance and you send an SAE a few weeks before you should be OK. In defence of Paul Taylor, I would like to mention his work for the GCRG. I say this as I was on a club trip in Wet sink 2 years ago when my mate had a fall and broke his leg. Paul was part of the rescue team and my friend was successfully evacuated to cave another day !...........Thanks to all involved that day.
 
paul

paul

Moderator
twiglet said:
The few times I have applied for a permit to cave in the Forest I have not had any problem.If you are a member of a caving club with PL insurance and you send an SAE a few weeks before you should be OK. In defence of Paul Taylor, I would like to mention his work for the GCRG. I say this as I was on a club trip in Wet sink 2 years ago when my mate had a fall and broke his leg. Paul was part of the rescue team and my friend was successfully evacuated to cave another day !...........Thanks to all involved that day.
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I was invoved in the rescue (as part of a group from Orpheus CC who were with Jan Karvik in the pub after a trip down Miss Graces Lane when the "shout" happened). How did your friend get on afterwards - fully recovered and back caving, hopefully?
 
Frog2

Frog2

Member
For our 2p worth - have had no problems gaining access - albeit on an infrequent and ad hoc basis.

 
Ship-badger

Ship-badger

Member
To everyone out there who has complained on this site about access procedures in the Forest of Dean, why didn't you come to the General Meeting of the Forest of Dean Cave Conservation and Access Group (FoDCCAG) a few weeks ago? It was advertised on this forum, so you knew about it. I was the only person there who was not a member of the FoDCCAG Committee. The conclusion that I draw from this is that everyone must be happy with the way things are done, otherwise they would have come to the meeting to have their say. Wouldn't they?
 
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darkplaces

Guest
Not able to attend doesn't mean anyone is happy. Not voting doesn't mean I am happy with the current government.

The problem is with Forest Enterprise and why 'permits' are required when other areas get on perfectly well without them. They kill the ability for Bob to say to Chris, "Hey buddy, I'm free lets go to.....". Its hoop to jump though with no advantage or positive I can see other then to delay a visit. My 'unhappiness' with Paul Taylor stems from his clear accusation that a c**tplaces member had vandalized an entrance then taken photos when the the title and description obviously said otherwise and was asking an innocent question "what's this???" next thing the poor guy is being made a scapegoat.

Like insurance has sadly been accepted by sheep (me included I annoying admit) I don't want permits to become 'normalized' I want the idea of permits to be so disliked and unworkable that they don't become the norm anywhere else. Otherwise you get function creep; Insurance > Permits > Licence > Mandatory training > Certification Requirments > Government controlled Caves!!
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
cap 'n chris said:
Paranoia?  :doubt:
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No, just stand back, think back a while and look at a lot of things in society.

This is how health ans Safety in some areas has gone wildly silly with Teachers refusing and being advised to not take part in school trips. Because one person applies one layer of heath and safety, then someone else along the line applies his/her own layer of H&S then someone else add's another layer of H&S in the end we have children expected to wear safety goggles and helmets to play conkers.

Function creep is a real and dangerous thing it turns the trackers in cars into the real world already my company wants to put trackers in cars, then the government wants to put trackers in cars, then the data will be used for one thing then another and before you know it the car will be remote controlled outside schools then in towns then finally you wont have any legal right to drive it will be done by computers, some of us enjoy driving.

Returning to the topic lets look at what were trying to do here, what does the FoD permit system have over the Mendip, Derbyshire or Cumbrian ways of access.
 
Brains

Brains

Well-known member
Rather than supporting restrictive access and accusing those that want freer access of paranoia, shouldnt the C&A officer be seeking to reduce the hinderances put in the way of underground visitors, after all the landowners and their agents shout loudly enough about putting more restrictions in place - Please lets not get into a slanging match but the most open and freely workable system is what is wanted surely? From our "side" we would ideally like no restrictions, from "their" side no access at all... develop a compromise then sell it to the people that have to live with it?
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Absolutely.

Conservation versus access. If the cave is already trashed then access is usually easy (are the two linked? Discuss.). If somewhere is dodgy, beautiful or in private ownership then access conditions often apply. If people can't be arsed with the access conditions then access for them is denied or, if abused, lost entirely (there are MANY sites where this has happened). Landowners don't need cavers but cavers need landowners.

C&A arguing for access? - yep. Check out the CSCC minutes re Box Quarry, WTBA, Star etc.

* Oops! - Sorry, but CSCC etc. is off thread regarding this region. Apols for hijacking the thread!
 
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