Posted on behalf of Iain Barker:

NEW CAVES OF THE PEAK DISTRICT.

Iain Barker, Bob Dearman and John Beck of the DCA have started work on bringing out a new edition of Caves of the Peak District.

It's 14 years since the last one and several new discoveries have been made in that period. We aim to get the completed book at the printers in the early spring of 2006 and to have any hope of achieving this we need all the help we can get.

In order for the new book to be as up-to-date as possible, we need as much information as we can get from every individual and club who has worked in the area since 1991. Everything from a one metre extension to a known cave, to a brand new hole; to maintain the information available to cavers of the future, as well as the present, it all needs to go into print or much will be forgotton.

If your club, or any individual cavers you know of have made even the smallest dig or advance please can we have the details? Even abortive digs need to be recorded to maintain the record.

The way to report your activities/discoveries is simple; just write it up in the same format as an entry in the current Caves of the Peak District and e-mail or post it to;

DCA ACCESS OFFICER
IAIN BARKER

access@theDCA.org.uk

However insignificant your contribution may be, please submit it all the same, who knows what a future caver may make of it.

Thank you very much for your time and trouble, I look forward to hearing from you in the very near future,

Iain

paul said:

Posted on behalf of Iain Barker:

NEW CAVES OF THE PEAK DISTRICT.

Iain Barker, Bob Dearman and John Beck of the DCA have started work on bringing out a new edition of Caves of the Peak District.

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I thought this was your baby Sam

Lets not just have a reprint of the old book with extras, even though it was very good it would be nice not to have to read Trevor Fords descriptions again

Has Iain forgotten how to post on here

I think a new Peak book is a great idea, and those taking on this task need all the help and support they can get.

In particular, I'd like to see three things in the new book:-

SRT rigging info, and topos where appropriate
Better surveys, rater than the "solid black" ones in the last edition
A larger format (say A5) to allow better illustrations/surveys. (Iknow that may be contravesial, but I don't ever take the guid underground, so the small format is not an essential)
A "ring binder" format (like som climbing guides), allowing pages to be copied and laminated to take underground (and not copied to save buying a guide!!).

O.k., that was four things...

A format like Iain's "50 classics" would be good for popular trips, and then seperate sections for small trips/digs etc.

I'll be looking up all our descriptions, and may volunteer to rewrite/revisit some of the more obscure holes/sites...

Andyf

Absolutely no offence intended ... but ... why should there be "rigging guides"? Caves Of The Peak District is a description of the caves, not how the present generation likes to hang ropes in them. Why do so many cavers seem to want to be told by other people how to do it? Just get on with it!

Sorry for butting in...

Absolutely no offence intended ... but ... why should there be "rigging guides"? Caves Of The Peak District is a description of the caves, not how the present generation likes to hang ropes in them. Why do so many cavers seem to want to be told by other people how to do it? Just get on with it!

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Surely caving guidebooks have always been a mixture of both a technical description of the caves, aswell as a description of how to get down them? Whilst I agree that rigging guides should not be included in guidebooks - surely the time has come to start giving some information on SRT routes (rope lenths mainly). Cavers need to move with the times, it would seem fairly perverse to give ladder and line lengths for JH for instance! Personally I feel that the amount of rigging information given in Selected Caves is about right (though it would benefit from a few less errors!)

I agree with Andy F about surveys though. Either have proper surveys, or no surveys at all. The present ones are worse than useless - they are often highly misleading!


GN.

The intention is to have the book printed in a larger format (have a look at the new "Caves of County Clare and Galway" from the UBSS for an idea of the size being considered). This will allow "proper" surveys to be included.

There's no point including rigging guides in a reference book such as COPD as bolt positions, etc. can and do change. It is better to give pitch lengths (all in metric nowadays) and either work it out for yourself (i.e. use ladder and lifeline of suitable lengths or be prepared with enough rope and maillons, etc for SRT) or purchase a separate rigging guide which can be updated regularly the same with detailed access arangements.

If you have any comments contact Iain at the email address given. At this stage the size, content and layout have already been decided otherwise the book will not get published for yet more time.

At this stage what is realy needed is information so that it can be included in the new guide book.

No doubt there will be another major discovery as soon as it is published (hopefully next year) - so get DIGGING!

Send all updates to Iain at access-off@thedca.org.uk or access@theDCA.org.uk

The intention is to have the book printed in a larger format (have a look at the new "Caves of County Clare and Galway" from the UBSS for an idea of the size being considered).

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Great. Will it be a similar price as well?

cap 'n chris said:

The intention is to have the book printed in a larger format (have a look at the new "Caves of County Clare and Galway" from the UBSS for an idea of the size being considered).

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Great. Will it be a similar price as well?

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Hopefully!

As the person most responsible for Caves of County Clare and South Galway, it's nice to know that the format has found approval in some quarters.

The size was a trade-off between something that could include "proper" surveys and something that could still be carried around fairly easily.

The cover was quite intentionally based on the type of plastic coated softback used by the most recent Caves of Derbyshire and Northern Caves. In this format it means that they make handy spare kneepads as well.

As far as price is concerned, I have to point out that we had two very large helpful grants, one from SUI and one from Aillwee Cave. That enabled us to set the price where we did (and to give SUI members a discounted price). We should, however, break even on the deal this year which for caving books of any type is remarkable.

If I can give any help with this new project, the give me a shout.

I agree with "Paul" (from the Peak) - quoting pitch depths and maybe approx rope lengths is all that's needed. I see no real justification to include ladder and line details any more (although anyone wanting to use them should get all the info they need (if they're half decent cavers) from what's suggested in the first sentence above.

The editorial panel really have to make a basic decision as to what extent they are catering for tourist cavers as opposed to exploring cavers. The former are well served by existing "rigging guides". Most of the latter are experienced enough not to need to have to be told which metal rings to dangle off. However the true explorers need a detailed statement of the state of exploration as possible. I worry that if a lot of space is taken up by ephemeral rigging topos the temptation to leave out full details of the caves themselves may reduce the guide's value to exploring cavers.

Again - no offence intended to anyone.

pitlamp said:

I agree with "Paul" (from the Peak) - quoting pitch depths and maybe approx rope lengths is all that's needed. I see no real justification to include ladder and line details any more (although anyone wanting to use them should get all the info they need (if they're half decent cavers) from what's suggested in the first sentence above.

The editorial panel really have to make a basic decision as to what extent they are catering for tourist cavers as opposed to exploring cavers. The former are well served by existing "rigging guides". Most of the latter are experienced enough not to need to have to be told which metal rings to dangle off. However the true explorers need a detailed statement of the state of exploration as possible. I worry that if a lot of space is taken up by ephemeral rigging topos the temptation to leave out full details of the caves themselves may reduce the guide's value to exploring cavers.

Again - no offence intended to anyone.

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Or do what we did & write a guide to an area where pitches are few and far between.

pitlamp said:

I agree with "Paul" (from the Peak) - quoting pitch depths and maybe approx rope lengths is all that's needed. I see no real justification to include ladder and line details any more (although anyone wanting to use them should get all the info they need (if they're half decent cavers) from what's suggested in the first sentence above.

The editorial panel really have to make a basic decision as to what extent they are catering for tourist cavers as opposed to exploring cavers. The former are well served by existing "rigging guides". Most of the latter are experienced enough not to need to have to be told which metal rings to dangle off. However the true explorers need a detailed statement of the state of exploration as possible. I worry that if a lot of space is taken up by ephemeral rigging topos the temptation to leave out full details of the caves themselves may reduce the guide's value to exploring cavers.

Again - no offence intended to anyone.

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Although I agree with you on only needing pitch depths and rope lenths (plus perhaps including natural belays where appropriate?), I'm not entirely convinced about your ideas for the users of a guide. Guide books by their nature tend to be used by people who are unfamiliar with a particular caving region or cave i.e. is that what you mean by 'tourist cavers'?
By 'exploring' cavers do you mean looking for dig sites and checking if they had been dug before etc or an experienced caver who wants to poke around different parts of that cave? If you mean the first definition then most of the information would be found in club journals etc, and if it was included it would be more of an encyclopedia than a guide book (although I would love to see something like this for all caves ) If it is the second definition, then what is the difference between this and a tourist caver? Sorry if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick in your post :?
I think 'selected caves of the UK and Ireland' has just the right amount of rigging detail: a small post note at the end of the description'

Hi all,

One thing I really liked about the existing guide was the notes at the start of each chapter, which included a few hints on "potential" and suggested dig sites, and I'd personally like the idea of including more detail on potential digs in individual caves.

How about writing the description in normal text, but, where a paragraph is about exploration or digs, it could be put in in italics, allowing a "tourist" caver (!) to read through and skip the non relevent parts.

I seem to think I've seen a similar thing done in another guide, (possibly the old S.Wales?), although I think that was to seperate different routes or trips.

andymorgan said:

By 'exploring' cavers do you mean looking for dig sites and checking if they had been dug before etc or an experienced caver who wants to poke around different parts of that cave? If you mean the first definition then most of the information would be found in club journals etc, ....

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But would it? Much of this material is to be found only in certain people's heads or in log books, neither of these sources is easily accessible (though there are some caver's memory banks I'd love to see online )

Most caver's memory banks I would rather NOT see online I think most are erased in the pub anyway....