A tax on caving?

Pitlamp

Well-known member
There was a brief item on Radio 4 this morning about the Peak District National Park wanting to charge people driving in. This has been rumbling in the background for a while but it sounded a bit more determined than before. It also said that if this was successful the idea would be likely to spread to other beauty spots (= caving areas).

Caving has been in a decline in recent years. Any such charge is yet more reason for younger, less affluent people to do other things. We have a great tradition in this country of outdoor pursuits being freely accessible - not the preserve of the wealthy credit card adventurer who can afford to pay such spurious charges. Does anyone know any more about this?
 

JB

Member
More info here...

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1657338,00.html
 

bubba

Administrator
Personally I think it's a good thing - the Peak is like one big traffic jam at weekends. I rarely even go into the Peak at weekends now because it does my head in.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
Hang on dont drivers already pay enough!

Visitiors bring tourisum, pay the local high fuel rates, buy the local food. I bet without visitors local pubs and hotels/B&B would disappear or have to lay off people. I suspect some spots the only industry is tourisum.

Do they have a decent public transport system to replace cars? Will this transport system allow muddy bikes and cavers onboard with all the tackle.

This is just another greedy tax instead of having proper roads. Only 1/8th of money collected by the road fund goes into the roads the other 7/8 goes elseware.

Bloody ramblers, I bet its them behind it all.
 

bubba

Administrator
It's about balance - tourism is one thing, but having the whole area overrrun every weekend is another. If I lived in the Peak District, then I suspect that by now I would be starting to hate the masses that invaded my home every weekend.

Good public transport is desirable, but I think the first thing is to reduce the pressure on the environment from the sheer amount of cars and people. If a congestion charge works, then that's perhaps the best solution. If it means less people make the trip then good, perhaps they can go somewhere else and spread the load a little. Love it or hate it, the congestion charge has been effective in central London.

Proper roads? Are you advocating criss crossing the Peak with a load of motorways or something ;)
 
Good public transport is one thing...but i'm not sure i'd want to take my Caving Kit and Tackle up to the Peak District on the bus ;)
 

Stu

Active member
'National parks are provided because of their special qualities, and one of those qualities is solitude, tranquillity, that sort of thing,' said Anne Ashe, who is lead member for transport for the Peak District National Park. 'Visitors pouring in by car don't do anything to contribute to that. In fact they detract from it.'

And?

Is the park a museum piece, to be locked away not to be used or a working attraction?
 

Stu

Active member
Though the statement is a contradiction... what is the National Parks charter?
 

AndyF

New member
bubba said:
Personally I think it's a good thing - the Peak is like one big traffic jam at weekends. I rarely even go into the Peak at weekends now because it does my head in.

NNOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

All this means (as with the congestion charge in London) is that the rich get to drive, and the poor don't.....

Snowdonia thought about a similar thing a few years ago. It was abandoned because they realised everyone would just go somewhere else.

We pay far too much tax as it is in this country, why support more...? What do the park NEED the money for - new Range Rovers..?

If there is a need to do this, then apply a quota system, ie only the first n thousand cars are allowed in. Then it is fair on everbody and isn't just a stealth tax.
 

bubba

Administrator
I reckon that four people sharing a car would be able to afford it, rich or poor. If you can afford to run a car, then you're not really that poor anyway in the grand scale of things.

A quota system would be much harder to implement imho.

Andy F said:
We pay far too much tax as it is in this country, why support more...?
It's not a tax - if you don't want to pay then you can just go somewhere else.

Andy F said:
What do the park NEED the money for - new Range Rovers..?
Eh? What Range Rovers?
 

AndyF

New member
I don't think the National Park Politzen have the legal right to raise taxes. You have to be an elected body to do that. (Didn't the US start a war over that in the 1700's).

Also, you have a right yes a RIGHT to drive on the queens highway. The peak park do not own the roads. And, despite what Tony Blair says, a RIGHT cannot be removed by legislation.
(Thats what makes it a right and not a privelege BTW)

Now I live in the Peaks, and yes traffic is a pain, but I'm pi55ed off with everybody waning me to pay for everything. Can you imagine the FRENCH putting up with that...??? Balrr brggHH!! :evil: it makes me spit blood...
 

Ship-badger

Member
AndyF said:
And, despite what Tony Blair says, a RIGHT cannot be removed by legislation

Unfortunately Andy, you don't have to study our history very closely to know that rights can be removed by legislation, otherwise landowners might well still be able to shoot trespassers (which would be bad news for some cavers).

c**tplaces said:
This is just another greedy tax instead of having proper roads

Surely this would mean more quarries digging up evermore limestone, to which you would of course object.

We all know that traffic congestion is a massive problem, just as we all agree that something must be done to reduce the amount of traffic on the roads, just so long as it doesn't actually inconvenience ME in the slightest that is.

An adea that might be more acceptable to a lot of people would be to have a congestion charge for cars that are only carrying one person. This would encourage sharing, which is no bad thing.

Another idea might just be to go to the Dales. The caving's better and there's less traffic.
 

AndyF

New member
bubba said:
Andy F said:
We pay far too much tax as it is in this country, why support more...?
It's not a tax - if you don't want to pay then you can just go somewhere else.

It is a tax. Airport Departure tax is a tax I don't pay if I don't fly, Insurance Premium tax is a tax I don't pay if I don't buy insurance. Not having to pay by not using something doesn't make it not a tax.

But that is sematics, levvy charge, tax .. .whatever. It does not alter the fact that the wealthy will pay, and the poor will not. If the aim is to reduce traffic, then simply a quota on cars is sufficient AND fair to all income groups. It is ficscally neutral too...

...and I don't want to go somewhere else, since I live in Matlock! (which isn't in the Park BTW) Should I drive 100 miles to Snowdonia at the w/e? Good for the environment? Or should I just pay and drive, in which case how has the traffic been reduced?
 

graham

New member
Ship-badger said:
We all know that traffic congestion is a massive problem, just as we all agree that something must be done to reduce the amount of traffic on the roads, just so long as it doesn't actually inconvenience ME in the slightest that is.

Ain't that the truth.
 
The congenstion charge in London has been succesful because there is a viable alternative to driving into the centre of London IE The Underground
If i want to go caving in the Peak District is there a viable alternative to get me, mates and our respective gear to a hole in the ground far from the beaten track...I don't think so...
So we'll just end up paying a tax for something which is currently free...and people like us will end up paying more beacause we're going week in week out summer and winter rather than just popping up for day out once or twice a year...
No Thanks for me, much as i'd love to see less traffic on the roads up there ;)
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Just got in this evening and seen the above posts after the one I placed this morning. At least it generated a bit of interest - and thanks for constructive comments rather than just slagging me off! What really worries me is that the balance would be shifted, ever so slightly, towards the more affluent going into the park and the less affluent not doing.

This kind of social engineering represents the thin end of a dirty great wedge and I really do feel that cavers should do everything possible to stop it. For example there's probably a requirement to consult interested organisations which, in our case, includes the DCA.

So does anyone know what DCA's position is on this?
 

Stu

Active member
It seems to me that London's congestion charge is to discourage unnecessary use cars/vans etc. It of course hits those who have to travel i.e. van users - nothing to do with lessening the load on the roads. They do have an infrastructure to cope, so looking on the less cynical side maybe they have a case.

Peak Park is an attraction. People will not be discouraged and Peak Park know that. Schemes like the Stanage bus are only partially successful. Convenience wins - and that's no bad thing per se. It will hit those who have to travel and work within the boundary (which certain parts of Sheffield City cross over).

I would like to know what actual evidence there is that this measure is needed? Sure it's busy, but then so is Meadowhall and that doesn't put people off going. You know what you're for. Is it a disturbance for the residents? Many make some rich killings via the tourist pound!

Looking around I cannot see anything about National Park's mandates. I know they are not in the business of promoting but surely as a Park, that is an attraction. Maybe scrap the Park!
 

AndyF

New member
Today, we generally have more leisure time. a good thing. People want to spend that with their families on holiday or days out, or pursuing their hobbies. That puts demand on resources, such as the peaks, where people want to go. You don't solve the problem by just stopping people going there. The aim should be to ecourage people to make maximum use of this leaisure time, not just throttling it back by making it a privelege of the rich. Its not the 19th century any more...

In the Peaks, only a few village centre seem to sufffer, ie Matlock bath, Bakewell, Hathersage, Chatsworth, Castleton and a few others. We should not impose a blanket tax on visiting the whole peaks to deal with these few areas.

The problem can be largely overcome by parking. I myself have driven round Bakewell several time looking to park. I'm sure that a park'n'ride in these few areas would resolve most of the issues.

If this hing happens, it will appear everywhere. Dorest, Chedder, the Lakes etc. In the end you will still go, because there is nowhere left that is free, and just accept that you have pay. Then you are back to square one, only poorer for it.

Also, there is no need for a charge outside of a few months in the Summer, and perhaps Easter. So would the charge only apply then, or at weekends. I doubt it, it's just to raise money, not solve the problem.

The Peak park have no mandate for this. They are not elected. Who gives them the authority to make such a change? No-one thats who. We have no means to bring them to account by the ballot box.

</rant>
 

AndyF

New member
Another article.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/eastmidlands/series6/congestion_charges.shtml
 

Mark

Well-known member
You want to try living in a popular peak district village, inconsiderate walkers, mountain bikers, cavers too, take up all available parking spaces and bugger off for the day, very few actually use the pay and display car parks until every other possibility is exhausted

The article JB linked to says residents could be excluded from paying extra, well they aint getting no money from me </rant>
 
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