Squeezes in Gentlewomans to Youds trip

zomjon

Member
On a trip last night my curiosity was again aroused by the lack of the 2nd squeeze and who and why had gone to such efforts to dig it out (I guess about a year ago) and change it's water course. Over the years and the many trips I have done down there, I had always considered the twin squeezes to be an integral and fun part of the trip. I was wondering if anyone knew who had dug it out to such extremes?
 

Big Jim

Member
That's a shame - I agree it was a fun wet grovel and ric's tool he made for clearing out the washed in sediment was ideal to scrape enough out for fatties like me to squeeze through. Maybe there are some grossly Bariatric Cavers out there???
 

pwhole

Well-known member
I was in about three months ago (when the sewage was found to be a problem again), and I don't remember the squeezes having been enlarged particularly. I guess if you like them really tight, you could always shovel some gravel back in again before you push through? ;)
 

al

Member
I have recently heard that the squeeze in Meccano Passage, Knotlow has been eradicated too.  :confused:
What's going on?  :cautious:

Maybe there are some grossly Bariatric Cavers out there???
What's that you say, Skip? Someone from Majorca??
 

ah147

New member
There were no squeezes in Gentlewomans to Youds last year in June.

The squeeze at the end of meccano passage has also gone. They've lowered the floor by about 6 inches.
 

zomjon

Member
ah147, the squeeze was there - size of it just depending on rainfall, prior groups and of course, how thick set you are - I'm afraid nowadays I'm of the rather more rotund frame, as no doubt Owd Git will fully back up when he gets to reading this thread!
 

ah147

New member
Which squeeze are you talking about zomjon?

Gentlewomans to Youds we went through where they used to be on our hands and knees last June!

Meccano is still a little sporting (last Wednesday) but you can see the old floor level and the drill marks going down a few inches.
 

ah147

New member
al said:
Drill marks????  :mad:

Oh yeah. This is the reason why I've been taking note. Infuriates me that people who are unable to do a trip modify the caves to suit them.

As I said, Gentlewomans went from a sporting little squeeze to a full on hands and knees crawl. Never even noticed we'd passed it until we saw the digging implements that used to be there.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
This touches upon a very interesting point . . . and a whole new can of worms. (I've never been to Gentlewomans or Youds, so I'm not saying that this applies there, it's purely hypothetical.)

To whit ? suppose you're quite small and are exploring a new cave, and you're faced with a tight rift, say, that no-one can get through, but there appears to be open passage ahead. So you enlarge it so that you can get through, and you explore a brilliant new system. Along comes somebody bigger than you, who can't get through the squeeze. So ? if it's OK for you to enlarge it, is it OK for a bigger guy to enlarge it more?????
 

Speleokitty

New member
ah147 said:
al said:
Drill marks????  :mad:

Oh yeah. This is the reason why I've been taking note. Infuriates me that people who are unable to do a trip modify the caves to suit them.

As I said, Gentlewomans went from a sporting little squeeze to a full on hands and knees crawl. Never even noticed we'd passed it until we saw the digging implements that used to be there.

Its not a cave but a mine. There is no way the miners would have left it so tight when it was being worked. They also drilled holes and used wedges/plug and feathers/explosives as required.

Most of the cave you visit in the Peak District has been modified so that you can get into it. Get over it.



 

ah147

New member
If the original explorers followed by multitudes of sporting cavers after them can get through and you can't. It's not a sign you should enlarge it. It's a sign you should lose some weight!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Speleokitty

New member
ah147 said:
If the original explorers followed by multitudes of sporting cavers after them can get through and you can't. It's not a sign you should enlarge it. It's a sign you should lose some weight!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The original explorers of Gentlewomans/Youds Level and Meccano passage were miners who didn't leave tight squeezes unless absolutely necessary. If someone has dug a bit of sediment out of the floor then they have probably restored it to its previous state.

 

bograt

Active member
They also didn't take out more stone than necessary, and some must have been pretty "slight" there's certainly not much room for a big guy in Hillocks coffin level.

Although I do agree about digging out sediment.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
This is an interesting situation here and one that does not have an easily identified side of the fence to stand on.
On one hand, the level of challenge of a trip is part of the draw to that particular trip so I can see why people are upset by the changes.
On the other hand, the removal of sediment from passages, be they mined or natural is not just an accepted practice but is pretty much the way that every cave dig progresses.
Can we really light the torches and sharpen the pitchforks when this is clearly not a clear cut issue?
 

shotlighter

Active member
There seems to 2 quite different situations here.
Gentlewomans for instance, where the squeeze IIRC is quite dynamic in nature, being made up of broken calcite/tailings etc. & others were the squeeze consists of solid rock.
The former seems to me to be fair game for scraping out the infill as required to facilitate a trip.
The other "solid rock" situation (where it is an established route, not a new one) should be left as it is. I speak as a larger caver who has modified much cave over the years in digs. I would sooner accept that a trip is not suitable for me, than start modifying passage to suit - which I find totally unacceptable, apart from in a rescue situation.
 

ah147

New member
Hillocks Meccano passage rock was definitely removed. Not just sediment. I can't speak for gentlewomans though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Brains

Well-known member
The removal of miners waste from mined passages is perfectly acceptable. If you wish to have a more "sporting" time why not wear boots that are too small, a hair shirt, or just go on a commercial high ropes course. Mine exploration is not caving, and is carried out for somewhat different goals to sporting cave trips, although there is significant overlap.
The Hillocks cross cut coffin level would originally have been a low hands and knees crawl, later enlarged to a bigger hands and knees crawl. This is now partly backfilled to a flat out crawl, and a bit damp. If this were cleared additional workings might be re opened at the wet end by digging down in the floor through waste (the water drains well once the sediment is disturbed)
 

owd git

Active member
zomjon said:
On a trip last night my curiosity was again aroused by the lack of the 2nd squeeze and who and why had gone to such efforts to dig it out (I guess about a year ago) and change it's water course. Over the years and the many trips I have done down there, I had always considered the twin squeezes to be an integral and fun part of the trip. I was wondering if anyone knew who had dug it out to such extremes?
Ref'; Oxford dictionary.
noun
[mass noun]

    1Enjoyment, amusement, or light-hearted pleasure:

Origin

late 17th century (denoting a trick or hoax): from obsolete fun 'to cheat or hoax', dialect variant of late Middle English fon 'make a fool of, be a fool', related to fon 'a fool', of unknown origin. Compare with fond.

would fun. or fool  apply to subterranean, wet, extremely chilly,  prostrate, gynecalogical type sediment  and pointy pebble removal from beneath a breached caver Jon?
Up to the point at which great mirth preceded a calcite rattling bottom burp. ( whilst my extended right arm was beneath your buttocks, and well towards your upper lumber area frantically mining the type of sediments refered to.)
I thought we were having a jolly evening out ( not in a gay way, you'll understand.)
good company, great scrambling and a great mine to see.
But NO!
I, for the first time on this trip let a paper- thin,whippet  of a test idiot take the lead at the squeezes/ squeeze  :cry:  the ignomy of realising one of my all time mentors and it must be said, idol, was like a Pooh bear  (post hunny session!)
pooh+bear.jpg

helpless to extracate his very confident little self forwards,  :LOL:  or backwards  :LOL:
To cut to the chase ,so as to speak / type. the self perpetuation of the upper 'squeeze' is as it should, ( in my singular opinion,) be.
the next bit ; No longer provides a barrier to casual wasteralls and vagabonds, who may do untold damage to some . or many , historic and geological marvels beyond.
on the sixteenth i shall indeed take pwhole's advice.
O. G.


 

Peter Burgess

New member
Brains is quite right. When I am caving I have a completely different mindset from when I am exploring mines. I tend to leave my caving mindset for caves only. Where I might question the removal of loose material is where that material was deliberately placed there by miners, for example stacks of deads which, like some cave sediments, can have significant archaeological value. There is also the good point to be made on leaving access awkward (or creating the awkwardness) to deter the less determined plonkers who only want to ruin a site with rubbish and spray paint. There is a classic example of this in the Bath stone area, which has caused "some controversy".
 
Top