Thought experiment re photography

cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
The Old Rummaginator's Selfie Stick thread is timely; on Sunday the topic cropped up with another bunch of cavers about the use of quadcopters to get lighting/photos/film in areas where taped paths don't allow access.

A selfie stick is a low tech version of the same idea - getting pictures over and beyond taped routes.

This begs a thought experiment....

Obviously it's AOK to get a photo from the "wrong" side of a taped route provided it is controlled (i.e. selfie stick) from within the taped path. Presumably such "control" extends to remote control, i.e. quadcopters or othersuch human-operated machines, and presumably provided the floor isn't touched, which is the primary reason for taping, it's perfectly in order to go beyond the tape?

QED provided the floor is sacrosanct, can machines ignore taped routes?
 
Ed W

Ed W

Member
What about if/when the 'copter crashes?  Even if it doesn't take out a stal or two on the way down, it may have enough impact energy to damage the floor.  Even if the floor is unscathed, attempts to retrieve the aircraft may cause damage.  Equally wafting a long stick around amongst fragile formations needs to be done very carefully.

My 2p on this is that in general nothing should protrude beyond the tape, though I may have held a flashgun over tape once or twice in my time.
 
graham

graham

New member
Nice to see this being thought about in this way, I've come across too many photographers who didn't think that tape applied to people with cameras.

I agree with Ed, copters, drones etc are still too unreliable to fly in this respect. (pun).

However, with regard to the selfie stick, this is exactly the type of set up that Herzog used when making his 3d film in Grotte Chauvet. Similar techniques were used in that cave to take still photos of areas that cannot be seen from the walkway.

Of course care must be taken and anyone who screwed up would probably find their legs broken along with some stal.
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
Don't like the idea of anything flying around stals.

Wouldn't the cave walls bounce the radio signal about and make the r.c. unreliable?
 
Maj

Maj

Active member
Can't common sense prevail?

Not all taped paths are in the same situation. Some will be to keep traffic to a common route to minimize the impact of foot fall through a cave. Some tapes are to guide cavers around vulnerable formations. There are some situations where the tape offers a buffer zone between a path and formations or feature, which helps to prevent dust/mud etc. that will inevitably part from an oversuit, reaching what is being protected.

I would suggest there are some places where it would be perfectly reasonable to use a selfie stick, but there are also some places where it would put formations etc at too higher risk. The length of the stick and the load it is supporting will also have a bearing on what might be considered to be OK. Everyones opinion on where the line might be drawn will vary. It would be almost impossible to put together a set of workable rules or guidelines unless they are so contorted or vague.

Common sense ought to prevail.
 
TheBitterEnd

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
Maj said:
Can't common sense prevail?

...

Common sense ought to prevail.
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Of course not. This is UK Caving where all views must be extremely polarized, there is no room for compromise or recognition that different places need different approaches. Only threats to break legs allowed here.
 
Ed W

Ed W

Member
Graham,
Its nice to see that we do actually agree about some things!

I've come across too many photographers who didn't think that tape applied to people with came
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This is never a view I have subscribed to.  As well as the obvious possibility of damage as the photo is taken, it also encourages others to cross the tape when they see photos that were obviously taken, or lit, from the wrong side of a tape.  I also do not believe that it is a good idea to arrange tape in such a way that it can be removed for photos for much the same reasons.  Personally I prefer to leave conservation tape in my photos, but if they are really tatty and detract from the photo it is usually pretty easy to remove digitally these days, even with my very limited photoshop skills.

I also have to say that I have a lot of sympathy with Maj and TheBitterEnd on this, sites are different and what is appropriate for one set of circumstances may not be for another.  As long as the use of these techniques is done with some thought, they could be used in some circumstances and could provide valuable and unusual photos.  My only criticism is in the use of the phrase "Common Sense" which in my experience is as rare as hen's teeth in practice!

 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
It's certainly worthy of discussion as all the relevant technology/equipment already exists to do aerial photography/video and indeed ALREADY HAS BEEN done (e.g. Matienzo/Mulu/Vietnam etc.).

Fly-through LIDAR is impressive stuff, but what about fly-through realtime video? Lighting clearly would be a difficulty but thin lightweight ground-based cabling and batteries could deliver massive power to a quadcopter while reducing its weight/mass and thus lighting plus cameras could be mounted onto one: it would be limited in range by this obviously but could still get great results. Top-down views in large chambers of cavers walking around boulders would be a camera angle I'd love to see!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hM2rfyay0&list=UUOy5DbLQyJ01PY85UFP3FrQ
 
graham

graham

New member
TheBitterEnd said:
Maj said:
Can't common sense prevail?

...

Common sense ought to prevail.
Click to expand...

Of course not. This is UK Caving where all views must be extremely polarized, there is no room for compromise or recognition that different places need different approaches. Only threats to break legs allowed here.
Click to expand...

Tell that to all the people around the country who want to stop Mendip using the type of negotiated access agreements that have served us well for years.
 
graham

graham

New member
Ed W said:
Graham,
Its nice to see that we do actually agree about some things!
Click to expand...

I suspect we actually agree about quite a lot Ed.

Ed W said:
I also have to say that I have a lot of sympathy with Maj and TheBitterEnd on this, sites are different and what is appropriate for one set of circumstances may not be for another.  As long as the use of these techniques is done with some thought, they could be used in some circumstances and could provide valuable and unusual photos.  My only criticism is in the use of the phrase "Common Sense" which in my experience is as rare as hen's teeth in practice!
Click to expand...

Agree, even the last bit. Someone even cleverer than Cap'n Chris once said:

"Common Sense" is neither common nor sense.
Click to expand...
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Perhaps it would help if it was pointed out that I was suggesting this topic specifically with regard to locations which do not have swarms of fragile speleothems, but rather large spacious chambers with plenty of headroom.
 
graham

graham

New member
Cap'n Chris said:
Perhaps it would help if it was pointed out that I was suggesting this topic specifically with regard to locations which do not have swarms of fragile speleothems, but rather large spacious chambers with plenty of headroom.
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Oh aye, clearly care needs to be taken wherever you are and whatever technique is used. But imagine if a copter had been available when they broke into the bottom of Titan, a couple of flights - especially with a whizzy laser scanner attached (not yet available, quite) - would have saved years of tedious climbing. ;)
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
They could certainly take up a 2mm cord and fly it over a natural arch for you and then you could pull up a full weight rope.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
graham said:
Cap'n Chris said:
Perhaps it would help if it was pointed out that I was suggesting this topic specifically with regard to locations which do not have swarms of fragile speleothems, but rather large spacious chambers with plenty of headroom.
Click to expand...

Oh aye, clearly care needs to be taken wherever you are and whatever technique is used. But imagine if a copter had been available when they broke into the bottom of Titan, a couple of flights - especially with a whizzy laser scanner attached (not yet available, quite) - would have saved years of tedious climbing. ;)
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"Years"? Nay, it was climbed over a few trips.

Besides, aven climbing is rarely "tedious". Specially if the rock's a bit chossy.  :eek:

 
mrodoc

mrodoc

Well-known member
Moves are effort to do some work on Mendip with a quad copter. The pilot has a PPL so I think we can be assured he is competent.  The mission is not photography per se. We have to get the copter underground in one piece though.....
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
graham said:
Cap'n Chris said:
:) There are plenty of non-tedious avens you could climb here on Mendip if you like.
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Don't think his passport's up to date. ;)
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He's right; I don't think I've been south of Manchester since 1997. (Seriously!)

To be honest, the one thing I've missed more than anything is the friendly Mendip scene. If I had to live down south I'd pick Mendip (or at least somewhere nearby), any day.
 
A

Andrew W

New member
mrodoc said:
Moves are effort to do some work on Mendip with a quad copter. The pilot has a PPL so I think we can be assured he is competent.  The mission is not photography per se. We have to get the copter underground in one piece though.....
Click to expand...

I have a PPL as well. I reckon the value that has added to my remote control piloting skills is precisely zero!
 
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