Hi,
I am fully aware off how controversial this subject may well be, I imagine it may well cause many issues and arguments about 'Professional' cavers, and probably the old 'only in it for the money' bullshit argument to rise its ugly head once more.

However, I want to ask for help, advice and the opinions of those who wish to share them.

There is a cave here in Oman, there was a project by some people (for arguments sake well call them 'ministry officials') to gate and tape a very pretty area of the cave. To this i have no objection and even helped carry the aluminum ladders, tape, gate materials and reels of steel cable for seven hours over mountain ridges through a thunder storm before lowering them down a three hundred meter cliff to the cave entrance gaining the worst sun burn of my life, but that's another story. The chamber was gated, pretty areas were taped as we were told and some ladders were used to bridge delicate floor formations as we were told they would be. However the rest of the ladders were used to make an easyish walk-able route to the taped and restricted areas. Where as before you needed knowledge of the cave and SRT skills to reach it (I wasn't overly impressed about this).

Recently whilst having a pee behind a rock in the cave i found black bags full of empty food containers and waist, including used batteries and steel cable from the people who installed these protective measures into the cave.

I was hoping to run a trip into the cave for a youth/school/college group to remove the waste. It would be run as an expedition where the kids will carry there own kit in and out and help in the planning of the trip. The aim is to raise awareness of cave environments, the environment in general and hopefully get some people interested in taking up caving 

A few days ago a school contacted us asking for a community action support program, I put together a small week program involving removing the crap in the cave, only to be told 'my students wont be clearing up rubbish'.

So i'm still hoping to get the trip done as it needs clearing up and i don't get the time, or manpower to do it outside work. I have put a small intro together quickly as to why caves are important and why we should look after them. I know there are plenty of people on here more literate and better at putting things into words than myself, and that is why i am asking for help. This is what i got together....

Why are caves important and why should we look after them?

Caves and Karst areas make the surrounding landscapes diverse and rich in different resources. From providing some of the best natural fertilizers too feeding some of the largest spring fed ground water on earth. They provide a unique habitat for rare animals like troglobites such as blind cave fish and shrimps who spend their entire life from birth to death in complete darkness to trogophiles such as bats and foxes who shelter and live in the entrances to caves but come out to hunt and feed. Caves can preserve important archaeological and paleontological information for millennia allowing us to learn about the past in great detail. Throughout history they have been used by humans for many things like shelters and homes, for minerals and making cheese or providing tourists with a fun adventure.

Any changes or additions or anything would be gratefully accepted as i really want and feel  this program needs to go ahead.

Joe

If nothing else, go in prepared to remove as much of the rubbish as YOU can take out yourself. Not much better when educating youngsters than to teach by setting an example. Even better if those who wouldn't allow the kids to take the rubbish are aware of this as well. Good luck.

As for your words - they seem fine to me. 

Oh don't worry, I had no intention of leading them in and watching them carry it out. Ill be taking my fair share, and probably more too. We always take some as we pass but it just doesn't seem to get much smaller 

Littering is one of my pet hates,  :spank:

It's a difficult one. Before making much in the way of comment, I'd be interested to know why their students won't be picking up rubbish. We get a similar thing in a nature reserve near here that I'm involved with, where litter picking is always needed but rarely figures in the proposed program of groups that offer 'assistance'. We have had, for example, to use the line "coppicing is not a recreational activity." Such groups, and I suspect your school teacher fall into this as well, seem to look upon activities like litter picking as somehow demeaning and not sufficiently exciting to impose on their charges. However, experience has shown that if you can get them to do it, the pile of crap at the gate is generally seen as satisfying evidence of a job well done.

You need to work on the teacher/group leader/whatever and I feel an addition explaining quite how intrusive and habitat-upsetting litter can be in caves in particular might be helpful.

One other fairly current reason why caves are are important is that they give us an insight into past climatic conditions and so can be used for climate research.

graham said:

It's a difficult one. Before making much in the way of comment, I'd be interested to know why their students won't be picking up rubbish. We get a similar thing in a nature reserve near here that I'm involved with, where litter picking is always needed but rarely figures in the proposed program of groups that offer 'assistance'. We have had, for example, to use the line "coppicing is not a recreational activity." Such groups, and I suspect your school teacher fall into this as well, seem to look upon activities like litter picking as somehow demeaning and not sufficiently exciting to impose on their charges. However, experience has shown that if you can get them to do it, the pile of crap at the gate is generally seen as satisfying evidence of a job well done.

You need to work on the teacher/group leader/whatever and I feel an addition explaining quite how intrusive and habitat-upsetting litter can be in caves in particular might be helpful.

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I agree, however now knowing more about the school and the students they have it was a waste of time suggesting it to them. I will continue to try and promote it to a better standard of being. The students wont be picking it up because they are young Emirati's and it is well below them. (I am not racist and know that there are some out there that would jump at the chance, my experience however says that they wont, they would in fact laugh at me for suggesting the clear up and throw whatever drinks can/junk food wrapper they happened to be drinking/eating whilst I spoke to them on the floor as they walk off). We have done big clear ups in other caves here very successfully in the past with 'expat' schools, I think that is the route to go down.

Not surprised Joe, and it's not racist, it's a cultural (class if you like) thing which I've seen mirrored in the UK.

And in caves as well. People often comment adversely about trashed caves, but how many would actually pick up rubbish dropped by other cavers? Quite a few probably, but by no means everyone.

Along these lines Peter, of course, the Descent "Adopt A Cave Scheme" deserves rather more credit than it often gets for encouraging this sort of initiative.

Joe - maybe you can achieve a "first" here and register your Oman cave in the Descent scheme? No-one ever said overseas caves can't be included!

I was just thinking of "Adopt a Cave" after I wrote that, but my line of thinking was that the mere existence of the scheme demonstrates there is a lot of truth in what I said.

Peter Burgess said:

I was just thinking of "Adopt a Cave" after I wrote that, but my line of thinking was that the mere existence of the scheme demonstrates there is a lot of truth in what I said.

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Fair comment Peter.

Anyway, let's be positive and hope Joe can make a difference.

Of course. Good luck, Joe.

Thoughts 

From what you have said you have them for a week of activity. So earlier in the week introduce this game.
A friend does outdoor education and one of the games they ?play? with the children is ?The un-natural treasure hunt?. They would prep an area normally bushes & trees or river edge with spoons, mirrors, lipstick, material ... you get the idea, and they have to collect as many as possible for a small ?prize?. (cuddle of the rabbit if they are small, or first go at the flint & steel to light their first bonfire or are they collecting points through the week as part of the programme?) The idea is to get them to start looking around them to see what should be there and appreciate it. It also gives them the idea that it is ok to collect/pickup things that shouldn?t be there.

I have played with your words to try and get them to think of themselves as part of their surroundings and to take ownership of it.

Karst areas and the caves that are formed in them make this landscape around us very diverse giving you lots of different resources you can enjoy and utilise.

Ask the children what they think comes from an area where there is lots of limestone. (Hopefully they have done some geography)
Or carry on with:
A limestone area can provide some of the best natural fertilisers for your food crops and limestone areas feed some of the largest spring fed ground water on earth. (is there a local river that does this?)
Ask the children what they think might be in a cave ... do they know what a troglobite is or a trogophile
Or carry on with:
The caves provide unique habitats for rare animals like troglobites such as blind cave fish and shrimps who spend their entire life from birth to death in complete darkness and are often white/albino to trogophiles such as bats and foxes who shelter and live in the entrances to caves but come out to hunt and feed.

Ask who else might live in caves? Which can lead on to man/bears/lions and

Caves can preserve important archaeological and paleontological information for millennia allowing us to learn about the past in great detail. Throughout history they have been used by humans for many things like shelters and homes, for recording their way of life by painting on the walls, for minerals (ask them about minerals, will any have jewellery on? it might have been mined from a different rock area but it keeps it personal) coal and making and preserving food like wine & cheese or providing tourists with a fun adventure. We can also make it very unpleasant in caves if we pollute it with un-natural things. The water that runs through it goes into your drinking water and will then make you sick so we have to keep the environment clean...

Over to you.  Best of luck.

what key stage? Peeps upthread are making good suggestions but using some big words that younger children won't have any idea about that they mean...

Joe, you also don't give a reason why the children won't be picking up rubbish. Did you ask why? Maybe an ideal opportunity to teach about H&S and PPE. I have lots of other suggestions but without knowing the key stage, it's difficult to know which to list.

And if you want to educate them u r going to have to get the teachers on board...

Regards, Mel.

POINT to ponder; we are considering education in a foreign country, key stages don't come into it, understanding of the arab psyche is required -- am I right Joe??

bograt said:

POINT to ponder; we are considering education in a foreign country, key stages don't come into it, understanding of the arab psyche is required -- am I right Joe??

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You are completely right, The current tend for Locals here (not just Oman, but the UAE, Saudi, Bahrain and Quatar and no doubt the rest too) is this new plastic fantastic disposable culture. It hasn't always been the way here and you will see the older (grandparent) generations clearing up after themselves and even others when the rubbish strays onto their path. However the younger generations, will drop everything anywhere instead of walk four steps to a bin. This is partly due to the knowledge that the government employs an army of cheap (foreign) labor to clear up after them and partly due to ignorance/lack of education.
Last year I was walking through the old capital part of Muscat and a small boy getting out a of car threw his sweet wrappers on the floor in front of father, Who completely ignored it. I turned and walked back over to them, picked them up and put them in the bin that was no mare than three or four meters away. At which they both laughed at me. The issue here is deep set in education and wont be a quick fix.

Most of the the caves with vertical pit entrances that are close to a road or village have been used as waste disposal systems for some time, these need a damned good clear out but its not going to be a nice job as they contain used pampers and rotting carcasses etc.

The part of the cave we want to clear is horizontal with two pitches to reach 'Crystal Chamber' where the rubbish has been hidden behind a rock. The age of the group will be +15 and we will take no more than 20. It is not a project we can feasibly do with 'Local' schools (as you saw with the 'teachers comment) and will have to be taken to 'Expat' schools for any progress.

Judi i will add your suggestions to the intro and get it sent out to some other schools this week. Thank you.

Thanks for the encouragement and help.

Sounds like you need this lass:

Неуловимая девчонка на мотоцикле против мусора

BRILLIANT 

Amazing! Best not tell her about the 5m of tat in Septrin...

meanderthal said:

Amazing! Best not tell her about the 5m of tat in Septrin...

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I'm not going back for that....