For those curious on the state of things...fellow grotto member and friend Jennifer wrote up this great article about Fern Cave. The story of Fern isn't unique, it's widespread amongst caves that have been closed to "prevent the spread of WNS". The bats, and their habitats, are being destroyed by this abandonment policy, as it keeps all us law-abiding cavers out, and lets in the vandals that we already have to deal with too much here in the states, but now there is no one to keep them at bay.

http://jenniferpinkley.com/the-unintended-consequences-of-cave-closures-a-story-about-fern-cave/

I do not understand how preventing cavers accessing a site allows vandals in? When cavers had access, what actually kept the vandals out?

Serious question.

Be interesting to see the reply.
It maybe simliar to a few other examples I know such as fishing not being allowed on a works pond which was closed off by fencing and locked gate that led to increased vandelism of a nearby lock-up and rubbish thrown into pond. Simple to see why in that case fishermen typically visiting the site most days of the week and so vandals were likley to be spotted. Once the fishermen were no longer around the fence and locked gate did not seem to deter their vandelism or discarding rubbish. What fascinated me was it was garder to throw the rubbish into the lake comaperd with going to a waste disposal site 

graham said:

I do not understand how preventing cavers accessing a site allows vandals in? When cavers had access, what actually kept the vandals out?

Serious question.

Click to expand...

Nothing is gated. Nothing is monitored. All the access management and monitoring came from cavers. We have vandilization issues, but they are taken care of quickly, and because we are out there all the time, they are caught, and most of them are dissuaded (hard to vandalize something in front of the folks -aka cavers - monitoring the area!)

So when the cavers are not allowed access by law, we dont go to these remote areas. We dont cave. We dont monitor access. Because we aren't allowed to do any of this anymore, by law. So the vandels, who couldn't give two shits about any law, have free reign as there is no one there to a) stop them and/or b) catch them.

Amy said:

graham said:

I do not understand how preventing cavers accessing a site allows vandals in? When cavers had access, what actually kept the vandals out?

Serious question.

Click to expand...

Nothing is gated. Nothing is monitored. All the access management and monitoring came from cavers. We have vandilization issues, but they are taken care of quickly, and because we are out there all the time, they are caught, and most of them are dissuaded (hard to vandalize something in front of the folks -aka cavers - monitoring the area!)

So when the cavers are not allowed access by law, we dont go to these remote areas. We dont cave. We dont monitor access. Because we aren't allowed to do any of this anymore, by law. So the vandels, who couldn't give two shits about any law, have free reign as there is no one there to a) stop them and/or b) catch them.

Click to expand...

So, when legal access was allowed, how often were "proper" caves on site? For vandals to be caught and dissuaded, this must mean that some cavers were there virtually every day. This does seem rather unlikely to me.

Weekday caving isn't so common in those areas. Too far from town, and hillbillies often dont know/care. And yes, they would be well monitored during the weekend by cavers.

Amy said:

Weekday caving isn't so common in those areas. Too far from town, and hillbillies often dont know/care. And yes, they would be well monitored during the weekend by cavers.

Click to expand...

Yes, I remember being told in WV that the cavers were a bit frightened of the locals & the locals were a bit frightened of the cavers.

However, you are suggesting that the vandals only operate at weekends as well - too far from town. Is that so?

Partially.

BUt we also have all of the circumstance evidence. Caves that are still open to cavers, are doing fine. No issues with vandalism more than usual for us here. It's not just Fern, but MANY other bat caves, that are closed by the government, that are being destroyed over the years of keeping cavers out.

Thinking of the mentality it takes to kill bats (yes, we are finding deliberately killed and maimed bats, spray-painted bats, etc, when they let cavers in once a year to help with bat counts - because most the gov't people couldn't find the entrances much less get into the cave) people aren't going to do shit like that if someone might be watching. They know they have free reign because no one is watching. It's not a cave closure, it's cave abandonment that is the govt policy right now. Which is the problem. Like putting a 5 year old in a candy store with no one around and tell them not to eat candy and forget them there for the day. They'll eat the candy... but if there was an adult around supervising, and showing them what to eat, etc, they'd not eat the candy. (I can't think of a better analogy atm so hopefully you get what I mean).

It's really sad to watch the destruction of these beautiful ecosystems by this policy of abandonment.

Best gate 'em then?

In Britain in sensitive places we have cave management groups.  They might be looking after a single cave as is the case with Draenen or an area of caves.  Sensitive caves are gated.  Interested caving clubs will be represented on the management group.  Variouse means are available to provide funding for locks and bat friendly gates.  Generally the system works well.  Sometimes problems occur gates may disapear occaisionaly but the system does work well... Cannot a similar solution be used in America?

Wed like that yes. In fact for years we managed he caves even on public land. Very successful partnership. Caves were protected wildlife flourished everyone hapoy.But when the govermwnt says stay out we have no choice or wed be breaking the law.

If as seems the case you can get special permission to clean graffiti etc in cave surley same mechanism can be used to install bat friendly gate.  It sort of sounds like the right people are not talking to each other.  If bats are being adversly affected by illeagl activity it must be possible for environmental agency to take action or is that too simple for them to understand?  Get publicity and shame them into action.

I am almost choking on these words, but it does sound like you need some well engineered gates. They can always be removed at a later date if conditions allow for it.

Doesn't someone have to pay for a gate though?

Do you not have park rangers who are suppose to stop this kind of thing. We really dont have the same problems here with caves, even if the cave is "closed". Very occasional occourance and if it does happen its a big thing. Maybe its an education or a culture thing?

Most caves aren't that accessable to the chavs, Alex.

Box Mines suffer damage on a regular besis because they are.

Or maybe our chavs are lazier than the Yank ones? :-\

Most of these caves, the Govt people (rangers, fish & wildlife service, whoever mans the area) basically understand there is a cave. That's about it. If they know where the entrances are, most get lost once out of site of the entrance.

And yes yes yes to all the ideas presented here, and we have been trying to work with them for years. There are TWO (maybe three) people for example, with permission to access Fern. And it tooks months to get that permit. They are working on trying to get more added to it, because that few can't clean up and police miles of complex cave system. But Fern is just one example of many.

I think in Indiana they are starting to get together to try and sue the government for denying access to public lands, destroying the bats and ecosystems, etc. but such takes a lot of time, and money. We don't have lots of money for big lobbyists and such. Nothing like what Fish and Wildlife and other large national wildlife protection agencies have. It's really sad. Basically the way I see it happened was "wtf bats dying? close the caves until we know what's going on". But in light of ALL the evidence now for what is going on, they just want to stick to the cave closure policy. It's easier (in their minds) to control people. It gives them a group to blame for the bat deaths, an action to take. Then can wash hands of it and be done. I mean, you can't do anything with bats, can't control bats. Can control people.

We are trying to get the word out. And groups like the Southeastern Cave Conservancy have reopened all their bat habbitated caves as an example, with  a permit access system in place so we know who is going in when and all that. Just like before with sensitive caves. From what I can tell this has upset the government but we have to challenge them somehow becuase their policy is completely unaffective in preventing the spread since you can't control bats, who spread it, and it's doing more harm in allowing so much greater access to vandals.

I think it is partially a culture thing. It doesn't seem ever that ya'all have anywhere NEAR the issues we do with cave vandalizm, or vandalizm of nature in general. I'm not sure why it's a "cool" thing to do here, comparitivly. I mean, the US (even before WNS) had sacrificial caves. Caves that are so well known by the mass public, it's the ones all the teens go to party in, all formations long since destroyed, spraypaint all over, trash, etc. Didn't matter how many cleanups we organized, all the crap would come back faster than we could get rid of it. These were easy access right off the road all the locals know it and been going in there with a flashlight since they were kids themselves sort of caves. It's sad enough they exist. We dont want them to take the other caves.

And the government isnt' even all together. For example, if you look up recreation places on the national park an recreation areas site, you easily find Fern Cave National Wildlife Refuge. http://www.recreation.gov/recAreaDetails.do?contractCode=NRSO&recAreaId=1395&agencyCode=70906
Notice anything interesting? No note of closure, and indeed very good directions right to the friggin' cave. What. The. F**k. The government doesn't even talk with /itself/. Oh sure let's close caves. But let's provide directions to them on our national recreation website and say "have at it!". 

Trust me...we're getting blue in the face trying to talk sense into people...hopefully things will turn around. We had good relatinships for years with managing access for the parks and rec and such services, but the gov't mandate to close caves changed all that.

Some areas it's not so bad. There are some states that allow cavers permits to do scientific studies and survey projects, etc.

It certainly seems like you have more of a problem in the States.
Your comments on the treatment of wild places in general is interesting. Reading of the restrictions applied to places like Yosemite, well we don't have much like that here, apart from the odd nature reserve.
And Britain generally is a very densely populated island. Maybe, ironically, this is good for wild places, we don't have the vast acreages that you do.

Yeah. It baffles me how there is such a destruction culture here. For that, I love our national park system et al, and have nothing against it becuase they really are incredible and without it they would be destroyed I'm quite sure! Caves are just special and most government workers don't know or understand. Not all are bad, like I said, some areas even with the closures they are working with cavers and still allowing survey projects, scientific studies, and such, to continue. It's a bit of a hassle with the permit system, but it's allowed pretty openly. But each state/govt wildlife group is different.

And we take issue still with being the "scapegoats" when in reality the science has proven it is spread by direct bat to bat contact. But such is common with out government...science is often ignored, lol just look at research funding cuts, killing the NASA shuttle program, etc etc...but I digress!