Re: Mendip Cave Festival insurance discussion

C

CavefestUK

Member
Following recent advice from the BCA, CavefestUK can now update you regarding BCA insurance for international cavers and non BCA members.

I can confirm that any foreign caver who attends the event will not be required to pay for insurance so long as they are a member of their own national caving organisation?s liability insurance scheme. They should bring evidence of this with them when they come and show it when they register.

For those who are not members of a national scheme (and also for UK based cavers who are not BCA members) we can insure them for a nominal charge of ?3 per person at the event. Proof of name and address will be required and payment will be taken at the event sign in.

Cavers are reminded that this sport is dangerous and is done so at your own risk. CavefestUK will do all that they can to ensure your safety by providing capable leaders where necessary.
Cave safe, stay safe.

Follow this link for information about BCA insurance:

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=legal_insurance:pl_insurance
 
Badlad

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
I'm interested to know why individuals attending an event need to hold their own insurance and what they are insuring themselves against?  Fascinating.
 
C

CavefestUK

Member
Follow the link and the explanation is there for all to see. BCA insurance is required for access to some caves, not all, and will need to be produced if you attend one of these trips.
We are due to post a list of caves for the event soon and each cave will have access requirements attached.
I hope this helps.
 
B

BarryW

New member
CavefestUK said:
Following recent advice from the BCA, CavefestUK can now update you regarding BCA insurance for international cavers and non BCA members.

I can confirm that any foreign caver who attends the event will not be required to pay for insurance so long as they are a member of their own national caving organisation?s liability insurance scheme. They should bring evidence of this with them when they come and show it when they register.

For those who are not members of a national scheme (and also for UK based cavers who are not BCA members) we can insure them for a nominal charge of ?3 per person at the event. Proof of name and address will be required and payment will be taken at the event sign in.

Cavers are reminded that this sport is dangerous and is done so at your own risk. CavefestUK will do all that they can to ensure your safety by providing capable leaders where necessary.
Cave safe, stay safe.

Follow this link for information about BCA insurance:

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=legal_insurance:pl_insurance
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Anyone can go caving without BCA Insurance, just ask the landowner.
 
andrewmcleod

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
BarryW said:
Anyone can go caving without BCA Insurance, just ask the landowner.
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Good way of annoying a landowner and potentially jeopardising access for everybody where a landowner has already made an access agreement with the caving community where they have required BCA insurance... If I was a landowner, I would be pretty annoyed by hordes of individual cavers turning up at my door (especially given the personal hygiene and diplomatic skills of many cavers) when I had already agreed access and people were ignoring that agreement and my wishes...
 
B

BarryW

New member
andrewmc said:
BarryW said:
Anyone can go caving without BCA Insurance, just ask the landowner.
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Good way of annoying a landowner and potentially jeopardising access for everybody where a landowner has already made an access agreement with the caving community where they have required BCA insurance... If I was a landowner, I would be pretty annoyed by hordes of individual cavers turning up at my door (especially given the personal hygiene and diplomatic skills of many cavers) when I had already agreed access and people were ignoring that agreement and my wishes...
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Who is talking about caves that already have an access agreement? The majority on Mendip caves are still freely available to anyone who asks. Fortunately the BCA has not got around to many so far.
 
nickwilliams

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Can we cut out the childish side-swipes at BCA, please? It does nothing except highlight your ignorance.

BCA won't be 'getting around' to any access agreements on Mendip or anywhere else for that matter. Access agreements are a matter for Regional Councils and clubs, not for BCA.

Some landowners want people to be able to show they have cover, others are less bothered. BCA's cover is there for all landowners whether they explicitly say they need it or not. The whole caving community benefits.

Badlad said:
I'm interested to know why individuals attending an event need to hold their own insurance and what they are insuring themselves against?  Fascinating.
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BCA's policy will indemnify the landowners and the organisers of the event whether or not the individuals who attend are BCA members. However, the member to member cover (which would allow someone to claim against another attendee) only operates when both parties are BCA members. If the event includes organised trips, and particularly if groups such as CDG and EUG are offering sessions, then the member to member cover is important.
 
andrewmcleod

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
BarryW said:
Who is talking about caves that already have an access agreement?[...]
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CavefestUK said:
Follow the link and the explanation is there for all to see. BCA insurance is required for access to some caves[...]
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I think it's fairly implicit that 'BCA insurance is required for access to some caves' means 'there is an access agreement where cavers must hold BCA insurance'.

Just asking the landowner works for those caves so naff that only a few people want to go down them, or digs; for most significant caves it would often not sustainable and I'm very glad the BCA and its component bodies (regional councils, access bodies etc) in general do a great job of coordinating on behalf of and for the benefit of the larger caving community.
 
B

BarryW

New member
The only ignorance around here is the blind ignorance of a great number of caver's. Large gathering such as these do not improve caver/landowner relationships.
 
A

AWW

New member
nickwilliams said:
Can we cut out the childish side-swipes at BCA, please? It does nothing except highlight your ignorance.

BCA won't be 'getting around' to any access agreements on Mendip or anywhere else for that matter. Access agreements are a matter for Regional Councils and clubs, not for BCA.

Some landowners want people to be able to show they have cover, others are less bothered. BCA's cover is there for all landowners whether they explicitly say they need it or not. The whole caving community benefits.

Badlad said:
I'm interested to know why individuals attending an event need to hold their own insurance and what they are insuring themselves against?  Fascinating.
Click to expand...

BCA's policy will indemnify the landowners and the organisers of the event whether or not the individuals who attend are BCA members. However, the member to member cover (which would allow someone to claim against another attendee) only operates when both parties are BCA members. If the event includes organised trips, and particularly if groups such as CDG and EUG are offering sessions, then the member to member cover is important.
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Is the ?3 charge to provide member to member cover for the duration of the event then? How does it work? Have BCA insurers agreed to provide a soecial one-off cover for non-BCA people?
 
nickwilliams

nickwilliams

Well-known member
AWW said:
Is the ?3 charge to provide member to member cover for the duration of the event then?
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Yes, that is correct.

AWW said:
How does it work?
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The event organisers will collect names and addresses, and money, from people who are not red, green or blue card holders.

AWW said:
Have BCA insurers agreed to provide a soecial one-off cover for non-BCA people?
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This is not a one-off - we have had a similar arrangement in place for the annual NAMHO conference since the BCA scheme began.
 
A

AWW

New member
Thanks Nick.
I didn't know that it is possible to provide insurance for individuals attending events. Just goes to show how good the BCA insurance is and how flexible. It must have been a nightmare getting it set up in the beginning.
 
A

Andy Sparrow

Active member
BarryW said:
The only ignorance around here is the blind ignorance of a great number of caver's. Large gathering such as these do not improve caver/landowner relationships.
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And your evidence for this is.....?
 
C

crickleymal

New member
Badlad said:
I'm interested to know why individuals attending an event need to hold their own insurance and what they are insuring themselves against?  Fascinating.
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What? You've been around long enough to know the answer already or are you just trolling?
 
C

crickleymal

New member
BarryW said:
The only ignorance around here is the blind ignorance of a great number of caver's. Large gathering such as these do not improve caver/landowner relationships.
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What a load of bollocks.
 
Badlad

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
crickleymal said:
Badlad said:
I'm interested to know why individuals attending an event need to hold their own insurance and what they are insuring themselves against?  Fascinating.
Click to expand...
What? You've been around long enough to know the answer already or are you just trolling?
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Yep, genuine question and still unanswered.  I do know that landowner liability is covered by all visitors whose intention is to visit the caves whether BCA members or not.  The likelihood and risk of any claim is extremely low born out by a complete lack of claims over decades.  Plus, even if insurance is a requirement for specific caves it is not a requirement for all caves so why does everyone attending this event need personal insurance cover?
 
AR

AR

Well-known member
A similar arrangement is in place for NAMHO conferences whereby if you want to go on one of the underground trips you pay a nominal fee for temporary cover if you're not already covered under the BCA scheme . It's to ensure that there is third-party liability cover fully in place for all organised trips and there can be no question _if_ anything ever did happen that the cover might not apply. NAMHO being an umbrella organisation rather than a club means that the three-trips -before-you-pay rule doesn't apply, and I guess the same is true for the organisers of this event; they won't be a member club so instead need to negotiate with the BCA for temporary cover.
 
C

crickleymal

New member
And I suspect it's easier to ensure everyone has insurance as the come through the gate rather than having to make checks on individuals who are going on trips.
 
Badlad

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
So it isn't actually necessary for many of those attending but it does make it easier to administer the event and therefore some will pay an unnecessary fee. 

For example; last time I did Swildons I didn't need to be a BCA member or hold any insurance, but if I come to this event and only go down Swildons (which is my plan) then I do need 'one on one' caver insurance.  It doesn't make sense.

The bottom line for me is that there is an unnecessary tendency to encourage a 'you can only go caving if you are insured' mentality.  That will inevitably put some people off and act as a barrier to participation.

 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Badlad said:
...That will inevitably put some people off and act as a barrier to participation.
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To quote a well known Mendip caver, "there are no barriers to access or entry to any cave; you just need to become a caver" - he didn't say that it might take years and require an immense amount of hoop-jumping. Somewhat cynically, I thought to myself, what he really means is probably that "you just need to become a caver that he's heard of".
 
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