Next week I am going back to look at some caves in Wasdale which I entered in 1968. I have been 'retired'; from caving for some decades, but it seemed from a recent conversation that Wasdale is not generally thought to host any caves.

Has anyone come across natural caves in this general area, or any mention of them?

Don't ask about the geology - that is why I am going back, I knew nothing in 1968 and assumed they were in limestone,,,but that is not what the geological map says.

I love Wasdale. I wish I could go there again.

I don't remember there being any caves there though. I certainly haven't seen any on my walks there. As far as I was aware, the area is volcanic rock. There are mines, I have seen some of the entrances, but they are more towards Seathwaite and Borrowdale. Somewhere on the side of either Green Gable or Base Brown if I remember correctly.

More likely be mines, there are lots in the area. Dont think any limestone in that area at all, though there is limestone at the Southern end of lake ditrict.

There are a few rock shelters (not in limestone) known as "caves" in various parts of the Lake District (e.g. Priesthole Cave on Dove Crag, above the Sykeside Camp site near Brotherswater.

AndyF said:

More likely be mines, there are lots in the area. Don't think any limestone in that area at all, though there is limestone at the Southern end of lake district.

Click to expand...

These are natural, not mines (I used to be a miner).
I'll dig out some old photos of the entrances and post them here, once I find the pictures and work out how to insert them here.
At the time I inspected these I also followed up a lot of references to other caves in the Lake District and found them to usually be cavities beneath chockstones in gullies, not really caves at all. I also had a look at various mines on Cleator Moor and the iron mines at Boot in Eskdale without getting underground. Tilberthwaite was better, I had hoped to look at the Coniston copper mines but transport problems intervened.

I have stuck the pictures and descriptions on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11409438@N06/?saved=1

The fact that there is no limestone in the area does not mean there are no natural caves, there are plenty of mechanisms by which worthwhile caves can form, it is just that the longest/deepest/most famous are formed by solution of limestones.  Looking at the pictures these are probably gull caves, formed by the mass movement of the rock.  Although often ignored by cavers, they can be quite extensive, interesting and even sporting.

I believe there is a a thinish bed of Coniston Limestone within the Borrowdale Volcanics but I'm not aware that it is cavernous. Taking the following passage from Northern Caves: Dove's Nest Caves NY 253 114

'91m long, 30m VR. On E side of head of Comb Gill below Glaramara in Borrowdale, 2.4km S of road. The whole front of Dove's Nest Crag has slipped down to create a unique complex of underground chimneys. N and S caves are at foot of N Gully and S Chimney respectively. Rathole entrance is 11m up N chimney and Central Entrance is 27m up Central Shimney, which rises from the daylight chasm beyond the Pinnacle. N and Central Chimneys unite at Attic Cave (the highest entrance) and the Belfry is a way out 15m above the S Cave. All these are linked underground by climbs of about Difficult standard.'

RobinGriffiths said:

I believe there is a a thinish bed of Coniston Limestone within the Borrowdale Volcanics but I'm not aware that it is cavernous.

Click to expand...

That is very interesting. Any idea whether this limestone reaches Wasdale? A NW:SE trend would be particularly interesting.
In 1968 I assumed I was looking at limestone, but as a teenager my geological knowledge was very limited. The caves are within the Borrowdale Volcanics according to the large scale geology maps I have.

The limestone is quite thin and interbedded with shales, and lies uncomformabley on the lower volcanics, forming the basel layers of the sedimentary units from the Ordovician (Ashgillian) rocks that are more typically seen as the slates well to the south of Coniston Old Man. AFAIK there are no limestone outliers in the Wasdale area. The outcrop of the limestone if only a few metres in width and can be seen from the Walna Scar Road, where its presence is marked by a series of borrow or bell pits dug for lime (burning or fertiliser), which might be mistaken as shake holes. Typically the rocks contain solitary rugose corals or their casts, and some brachiopods.
My geology texts are packed where they can no longer hurt me, and I can stand being wrong... but thats my tuppence worth.

Brains said:

The limestone is quite thin and interbedded with shales, and lies uncomformabley on the lower volcanics, forming the basel layers of the sedimentary units from the Ordovician (Ashgillian) rocks that are more typically seen as the slates well to the south of Coniston Old Man. AFAIK there are no limestone outliers in the Wasdale area. The outcrop of the limestone if only a few metres in width and can be seen from the Walna Scar Road, where its presence is marked by a series of borrow or bell pits dug for lime (burning or fertiliser), which might be mistaken as shake holes. Typically the rocks contain solitary rugose corals or their casts, and some brachiopods.
My geology texts are packed where they can no longer hurt me, and I can stand being wrong... but thats my tuppence worth.

Click to expand...

Thanks Brains, I had reached similar conclusions myself earlier tonight after reading the Northern England British Regional Geology.

The key point is that the Coniston Limestone is upper Ashgillian, not part of the Borrowdale Volcanics but younger and deposited after some kind of interval marked by an unconformity. The main outcrop is narrow and runs broadly south-west to north-east, lying north-west of Coniston Water and passing through the northern end of Windemere, nowhere near Wasdale. As you say, no suggestion of any outliers of the Coniston Limestone in the Wasdale area. The maps I have seen are not large scale but I would have expected any significant outliers to be shown. The description of the Coniston Limestone; impure, with ashy sandstone, tuffs and lavas, does not sound promising for cave development in any case. I don’t believe these caves can be in the Coniston Limestone.

It is possible for thin limestones to be interbedded between tuffs and ashes in the sort of environment in which the Borrowdale Volcanics were deposited (some of the tuffs were deposited into water). The Regional Guide suggests this has not happened in the Borrowdale Volcanics. Although “a high percentage of carbonate is characteristic of some tuffs” this is volcanic and not bio-sedimentary in origin. There does not seem to be any chance of solution caves developing in the Borrowdale Volcanics.

There are said to be some dykes intruded into the Borrowdale Volcanics (Quartz-porphyry, spilites and andesitic), maybe cooling joints opened up.

Although the caves are on a fairly flat area, there is I should think the possibility of movement in the past opening up joints.

Anyway, the caves don’t seem to be generally known. Hopefully I’ll find out more next week.