I had a very rewarding saturday spent in in the hills of north east wales between llandegla and wrexham in the south and Greenfield in the north.


I left throughly enthused about the potential of these caves for exploration and cave science in the form of hydrology, biology and many other disciplines.


But unfortunately i also left deflated at a perceived wall of no digging allowed for the caves on the clwydian range, i feel this is a travesty! I left hearing stories of diggers who had been digging a cave for 7years and then were told to stop by the local SSSI police, who do not allow any digging under any circumstance.


One look at a small portion of a website about north wales caves is a case in point about the sheer potential for science in these caves and mines https://sites.google.com/site/cavesofnorthwales/20-cave-life
When reading this page you realise that there are unique species of cave life that are still being found, the strange one with the wing things is a case in point.


It is the close link of these caves to the sea which will prove to make a significant difference to the cave life which survives and thrives in the conditions unlike any other in the country or probably the world.


It is also this link with the sea which will prove to be interesting when it comes to the depth potential of these caves. Recent and future work in an underground lake will further illuminate the depth potential and may well point to some resurgences in the sea.


Without probing the caves on the clwydian range, we may never know what the most fantastic natural resource of north wales has to offer. It would be ludicrous if there is a cure for an ailment in the bacteria of these caves, not yet entered, if the reason for not being allowed to dig them is the impact on the surface!




Conclusion:
We (as cavers) need to work constuctively with natural resources wales to ensure that the voids beneath the clwydian range are extensively documented and that any organisms are properly documented.

Hi Alastair,

by 'no digging in the Clwydian Range', do you mean the range as an AONB, or just the discrete SSSIs that exist there ? I'd be surprised if there's a blanket ban.

With regard to resurgences, do you you mean into the Dee Estuary. I guess that's possible, if there is some local faulting bringing the lower carboniferous up, but I thought the Dee was fringed by Upper Carboniferous rocks on the Wales side, and PT on the Wirral?

However, if the lower Carboniferous had been eroded prior to the upper being deposited (abutting onto it), which is quite likely  for an emergent shoreline, then you could conjecture how adjacent, but non contemporaneous bedding could transmit water from the limestone into the Dee.

Cheers,

Robin

HI Robin,

forgive me if there are some inaccuracies, there almost certainly will be.

Geology conjecture
uphill near Llandegla there is a cave on mixed geological grounds as I guess there is a chance that downdip there could be water rising through similar ground?
the cave is called Ogof Gwaun on map C. https://sites.google.com/site/cavesofnorthwales/16-cave-location-maps
highlighted on the geological map

digging
now again probably some factually incorrect items, so bear with me.
I believe one of the caves in Map B on same link as above has been dug but permission denied later on.

Apparently what used to be CCW (now NRW) are blocking Digs on any special areas of Conservation (or Protected sites, as CCW coined them a couple of years ago)
http://www.denbighshirecountryside.org.uk/files/1128482556-In_Depth%20_Protected_Sites.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countryside_Council_for_Wales
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Special_Areas_of_Conservation_in_Wales The sites of interest are mostly stubs.

The Cambrian Cave Register may help you find more sites of interest - here's a screenshot of the Llandegla caves and geology from http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/registry/CCRm.htm

Also a screenshot from http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/registry/CCRm2.htm which shows SSSIs with caves in Wales

That SSSI map is very informative.
Elwy, Halkyn, Alyn Valley, Bryn Alyn and Esculsham covered. That covers a lot of caves.

I think Ogof Gwaun has been listed as Ogof/Twll Ebbs in the past, if it's the one I'm thinking of.


Robin

I think NRW are totally opposed to digging anywhere in an SSSI. In the 'old' days considerable work was done in the Alyn gorge by various groups, but after the SSSI designation then it stopped being legal and NRW attempted to flex its legal muscles against an innocent group over work in Xmas cave.  The culprits were another group!

There was a collapse at the back of one of the 'leete' caves last year and NRW wrote to various local caving groups asserting that someone had been digging illegally. Anyone with an ounce of sense would have realised that it wasn't made by cavers as it was deep, wide and unstable plus there was no shoring up to prevent premature burial. Fortunately they finally realised it was a natural collapse and the Loggerheads country park organised it to be gated to prevent further 'lost' dogs.

While the NRW can prevent cavers digging, they seem powerless to hold back natural erosion and weathering. In the space of four years there has been a major collapse in the lower series of Poachers cave and a passage has dewatered itself without caver assistance. The hole at the back of the leete cave has deepened considerably and will probably ultimately cause the public footpath to collapse and maybe the Alyn river to take a new course down to the Milwr tunnel. NRW doesn't know this yet as they have poor relations with local cavers due to their intransigence. I think there needs to be goodwill on both sides, but that from the NRW seems sadly lacking...

Dave

could'nt agree more dave but it's not for the wont of trying on our behalf.
next winter will REALLY change that leete  cave , you need to see it. you'll be shocked as you know what it was like before. next winter will probably take the rest of the cave floor and will render the new gate useless as it will end up at the bottom  . can't say we did'nt tell them

I'm curious as to how NRW monitor the condition of underground features of importance in their SSSIs, given that in England this is done on a voluntary basis by cavers?

That is the irony, they have no bloody idea.
I have offered to take them underground to no avail.
But with a bit of trust and give and take they would

It was discussed at the weekend that perhaps a few examples of good practice around the country (edit:insert "UK") could sway their opinion. It would be great to see this in action, as i know A LOT of GOOD work is done by cavers across the country (for free) it would be a shame to see this free work going to waste when we could simply state the case of how good relations are in other counties and how good it could be in the clwydian range.

Could you start a new thread so people can give examples of this helpful practice 

cavemanmike said:

Could you start a new thread so people can give examples of this helpful practice 

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Aye Aye Captain http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=22153.new#new

AR said:

I'm curious as to how NRW monitor the condition of underground features of importance in their SSSIs

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In N E Wales they pretty much don't. They asked for a meeting with local clubs (and CCC) and then "asked" us what was down there. Having explained what we knew, they then went on to "dictate" what we could or could not do (well, what we could NOT do).

The Leete cave was nothing more than an open grotto with some evidence that a single bat may have been in there at some time or other. Flooding took the floor out and cavers were immediately "blamed" for digging (as per a post above). The full force of NRW and its subsidiaries swung into force to "act" (all at YOUR expense) with many people involved in many discussions and subsequent actions. A grille and gate was manufactured (supervised by a qualified batologist (or whatever they are called) just in case it might appear while measurements were being taken. Foundations were dug into the floor by "hand"  as it was deemed that machinery might disturb the bat that might exist (a quick peep inside the grotto was quite sufficient to tell you it wasn't in there and hasn't been for an age).

Cavers were immediately banned from entry during bat hibernation season in case we disturbed the one single bat that might be there even though the "grotto" has been open for more than 50000 years and wild camping has been in full swing since the 1960's there. Obviously there was an urgent significant risk ....

No account was given to the fact that they were hand digging holes for the foundation in a dangerous position as the cave undercut the floor. They hadn't looked or asked anyone to look first.

At the meeting we asked if we could "explore" and when asked "how" we would do that we answered that we had a four foot metal rod that we would push into wet material (since that was the likely direction that the flood took the material). They considered it and then said they would only be happy with a three foot "push" and they considered four feet to be excessive (how arbitrary is that?). Furthermore, when we asked if we could "dig" they refused stating that the material was geologically important (this is the floor that has collapsed and turned into misc gloop filled with old beer cans and glass from previous camps over the years). Having defeated that argument they then told us that we would need to submit a full plan of the dig including a survey of the fallen cave. We needed to construct a "sealed doorway" across any fissure caused by the erosion. When asked why we were told that we were altering the micro-environment of the cave as it might draught (they were uninterested in the fact that it was an open "grotto" and open to the elements and had been for an 00ber number of years). Furthermore, I specifically asked "If we do all of that and submit a request, will you then green light it?"  After a few mumblings, he said "no, probably not".

That's what we are up against.

Since then the cave has collapsed again (nature ignores NRW bureaucrats) and is now significantly more sizable. Furthermore, there is significant evidence of a new sink in the dry river bed yards away which is the probable cause. This same sink was "dug out" by the former CCW some years ago and filled with sandbags. Again, nature ignores bureaucracy and "rules" and has found its own way to dismiss the (expensive & now pointless) CCW efforts. In fact, it is entirely possible that the work they did directly caused the water to change its course an collapse the cave. Should they now be prosecuted for an action that they took - after all, they tried to prosecute us for a "dig" (that we weren't doing) even though there was no water.

Again, that's what we are up against.

It's not just the interference and the demonic arbitrary No you can't do this, that and the other just because we say so it is also the fact that we (you and me) are paying them large amounts of money to keep them in their jobs with expensive resources at their fingertips (while the country languishes in debt.)

Incidentally, this meeting was one of the final straws that snapped and took me out of the world of caving politics/admin/compliance/do-gooders etc.

Now I just go caving ....

:ras:

Ian

Ian, don't worry, it can be sorted. If we get enough people involved with enough clout both on the Scientific side and on the do-gooder side, we can side with the NRW people and then bring them round to helping us.

I can imagine that the site in Loggerheads gets a lot more traffic from walking tourists than the one in the Derbyshire Dales, and yet the solution in the Derbyshire Dales was fantastic for both and has come with a glowing report from the Nature Guys.
They are very proactive with getting cavers involved with sorting things out.

alastairgott said:

Ian, don't worry

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I'm not worried, just lost the will to live. These people (and people like them) seem only to exist (with power at OUR expense) to justify their existence by creating and enforcing arbitrary rules that do nothing to preserve the natural beauty of anything and, on the contrary, ruin many things (giving themselves impunity).

I am sorry that I have absolutely no confidence that you will make even a hairline fracture of a difference but I wish you the very best of luck and genuinely hope you make some headway.

All of us that have tried to this point have been met with "no" and police sergeants.



Ian

Ian Adams said:

All of us that have tried to this point have been met with "no" and police sergeants.

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Do you have any formal (written) warnings? If you do, I might be back in touch if it proves of any use later.

Yes .....

Emails from CCW (now defunct and NRW) telling us to backfill a collapse we were digging (with landowners permission) to make it safe. We (and the landowner - so he says anyway) did not know the land was SSSI and, in any event we were making it safe. We were "ordered" to backfill and restore the ground to pre-sink and threatened with prosecution if we did not comply. We filled in the relevant paperwork to pursue a "formal" process and was told "no". (no reason or rationale). I was not the secretary at the time but I may be able to lay my hands on it.

Secondly, we were "summoned" to a cave by the attached sergeant to the CCW and, upon arrival, he had a summons in his hand with my name on it (I was then secretary of the club). He intended to serve me with the summons for prosecution and only didn't when he came to realise that he had the wrong person/club. I do not know how the CCW officer came to the conclusion who was digging in the cave in question but, quite clearly, the enquiries were inadequate. As I was not "served" with that summons I don't have the papers but I am certain they will be public record under the FOI act.

Same officer was present at the meeting with CCC and A.N.Others and its the same officer who decided that he was not happy with our 4 foot rod and we could only insert it up to 3 foot into the gloop.



Ian

Ian Adams said:

under the FOI act.

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So I get this right, the holes you are referring to are in the Loggerheads country park or are there others?

The "grotto" is in Loggerheads (actually it isn't but they have claimed dominion).

The other two are further away, near Cilcain.

Ian

On a much more positive note, there is an unknown resurgence on the front facing bank of Penycloddiau.

Walking along the "Clwydian Way" (lower than Offa's Dyke) you can see water coming out of the hillside at Grid Ref : SJ 128 671 (approx). It is visible on a 1:25000 map. When you are stood there a streamway exits the hillside with no evidence that the stream was ever on the surface above it. Nor is there any evidence any where in the vicinity of its origin. Logic suggests it runs subterranean. It trickles in the summer even in the driest weather and in winter in spews a lot. The (former) landowner dammed the fall of water around 3 metres from the cave exit and "captured" the water to fill a tank. The tank and housing are now well deteriorated and not in use.

However, the "dam" has caused silt and material to back up causing both the entrance to collapse (now two small entrances either side of the "original" escape) and for proper exploration the damn (bricks) would need to be removed and the entrance cleared.

It's an AONB as well as SSSI and probably would require all sorts of permissions (including the landowner of course) even to prod it even though it is currently an eyesore.

Still ... it's a tease ....



Ian