Cwmystwyth Mines Access Poll

Do you condone damage done to the barriers on the various entrances to Cwmystwyth Mines?


  • Total voters
    26

Peter Burgess

New member
This is very simple. You either agree that damaging barriers on Cwmystwyth Mines entrances is an OK thing to do, or you don't.

Please keep discussions and arguments about the matter to the other topic - this is just for voting.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
The 2/12 balance of votes (as of now) may not be too statistically significant, but I think it makes the point that only a small number of cavers think that damaging property is justifiable.

Unfortunately, it is often the actions and attitudes of a minority that influences the actions of others. Let's hope that those who take a responsible stance regarding future access will achieve what we all want by legitimate means.

 
D

darkplaces

Guest
The poll means nothing because it is a poll in an environment populated by 'club cavers' which from day one have had access and are constantly in the same environment with the same like minded people thinking the same way about access.

Its like going into a police station and asking police if they like police, of course they will all say yeah police do a good job.

Go out of the enviroment and ask a muslim or a black person about the police and you will get a different answer. Depending on where, the answer will be pre-loaded (simply a bad area) or show a more balanced view.

Peter I don't know you but you really do come across as the most condescending person I have ever known. You lack the ability it seams to see the grey. The law isn't THE LAW, plenty examples exist of bad laws, wrong laws. Infact the military teach recruits about 'illegal orders' which creates the conflict of do I follow the law to the letter, or do I make a judgement. Make a judgement based on the individual situation don't follow the law blindly.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
c**tplaces - I don't know you either.

And as I don't know you I am not prepared to make a judgement statement about you - which you seem to be happy to do about me. Please keep your personal observations to yourself. They have no place on a friendly forum such as this.

If 'condescending' in your eyes means not agreeing with the illegal actions that some people would condone, then, yes I am happy to be 'condescending'.

I consider criminal damage, and breaking and entering to be simple criminal acts, that should not be condoned by ANY law-abiding caver. Period.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Just by pure chance someone just emailed me this "Thought for the Day". These are usually pretty trite little phrases, but this seemed so appropriate, I decided to post it here. It just about sums up my stance.

I have the right to be direct about what I'm thinking or feeling.

I don't have to play games with people, expect them to read my mind, or communicate with looks or hints. I can speak directly and to the point about whatever I want or need to say. As long as I say what I mean without being mean, I always have the right to express my opinions, likes and dislikes, needs, and feelings. How the other person receives this information is up to him or her.

I can't be responsible for how others feel about what I say, I can only do my best to express myself in the best way I can, with openness and directness.

 
M

Mine Explorer

Guest
c**tplaces said:
The poll means nothing because it is a poll in an environment populated by 'club cavers' which from day one have had access and are constantly in the same environment with the same like minded people thinking the same way about access...

Whilst I tend to agree that the poll is pretty meaningless, this statement seems to imply that 'club cavers' have access to places and 'non-club cavers' don't have access.  That 'club cavers' will ask for permission from landowners, whereas 'non-club cavers' will avoid asking for access.  I'm sure you'd agree this is unfair, as any responsible 'non-club' caver would also seek permission from a landowner before entering their property.

I'm sure I can think of examples where 'non-club cavers' have negotiated access arrangements with landowners, and have even needed to fit gates and locks as part of those agreements.  The same as there are examples of 'club' cavers forming agreements with landowners without the requirements of locks, or otherwise preventing or restricting access.

The 'club' /  'non-club'  hobbyhorse seems to get wheeled out by some people from time to time when it really isn't relevant to the subject in question.

If an individual (whether they belong to a club or not) chooses to cause damage to gain unauthorised entry to someone elses property, then they bring the entire (club or otherwise) caving community into disrepute.  That is something which is counter productive to all underground explorers (club or not) who are prepared to take the time and trouble to ask permission first, be they 'non-club' individuals asking to go underground, or a 'club' asking for permission to go underground.  Unfortunatley clubs by their very nature have a higher profile, and as such anyone spotted going underground without permission is likely to be assumed by the landowner to belong to the 'local club', even if in reality the person is 'non-club', or belongs to a different 'club'.

This means the actions of one person doing what the heck they want without permission can jepordise matters for the wider community (club or otherwise) who are polite enough to ask first, and in so doing possibly discover any access conditions placed by the landowner (eg. don't park cars by the entrance, don't climb over the field wall - use the longer footpath, don't drive down the private lane,  etc.).    ...oh, and if after asking the answer is found to be 'no', then respecting the landowners wishes.  By respecting those wishes and not antagonising the landowner, it may be possible (for someone) to gain permission at a later date.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Mine Explorer:

It doesn't matter how often you try to explain it, I don't think you are going to persuade one or two of our number that damaging gates and grills causes problems, rather than solving them. It's probably better to save efforts talking to owners, rather than bashing your head against a brick wall, trying to shift the attitudes of the intransigent. o_O
 
M

Mine Explorer

Guest
Peter Burgess said:
It doesn't matter...

Whilst I think your inference may be slightly unfair on some of our number here on UKC.  I do accept that people are very unlikely to change their views simply on the basis of ramblings on an internet site - especially those who feel justified in ignoring a landowner's clearly stated wishes (and I'd rate fitting grills as a pretty clear statement of intent!)
 

Peter Burgess

New member
The poll means nothing because it is a poll in an environment populated by 'club cavers' which from day one have had access and are constantly in the same environment with the same like minded people thinking the same way about access.

I don't agree with this argument. There is no prerequisite for joining this forum that you have to belong a club.

Everyone on the forum has an opportunity to express an opinion in a poll. The poll, being on the forum, has the potential to reflect attitudes within the forum membership, and no further. What makes a poll more of less significant is the number of the votes cast. That's why with only a dozen or so votes, the poll has little significance. Either people can't be bothered, or can't see the point. Fair enough.

 

Peter Burgess

New member
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,1974.0.html

A majority of those voting in this poll were club cavers, so Darkplaces is right telling us that few non-club cavers populate the forum, assuming that the old poll was reflective of the membership. Whether the mindset of a non-club caver is such that they would want to 'join' a forum is debatable anyway, seeing as the forum is a sort of loose association, like a unconstituted club!

HOWEVER, you cannot expect any discussion or poll in the forum to reflect the views of those who are not members of it.

I am sure there are plenty of club cavers who also walk a fine line when it comes to respecting the law - this isn't the preserve of the non-club caver by any means. Just as most non-club cavers do respect other people's property and would not condone breaking and entering.


 

graham

New member
Whilst it is not actually germane to this debate I could name certain cavers who I know have damaged cave gates in the past. I could also tell you exactly which caving clubs they belonged to.

What is germane is that I could also show which access negotiations, on behalf of all cavers, were damaged by their actions.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I have broken into mines on two occasions. Shocked looks all round.

The first was after 15 years of access being denied. When an article about the mines appeared in the local newspaper, with my name as a contact, the owner contacted us and asked if we would like to see his mine. However, after 15 years, the padlock was stuck solid, or nobody could find a key, so we cut it off with permission. While we were doing this one dark evening, a police car pulled up, no doubt alerted by a local resident, and we had an amusing few minutes explaining what we were doing!  ;) Access has continued at this site, uninterrupted for a further 16 years now.  :clap:

On the second occasion, we were not amused to turn up at another mine to find that the landowner's lock had been smashed off, and another one put in its place. This was duly disposed of and new locks fitted.  :mad:

On a further occasion many years ago, a group turned up at one of these sites to find someone had broken into the mine and were still there, having left a hapless lookout on the surface. Fearful that the carefully negotiated access arrangement we had on this mine was in jeopardy, the group had no hesitation in calling out the police who then arrested the trespassers as they emerged, who then spent a night in the cells. To add insult to injury, the tax disc on their car turned out to be out of date.  :cautious:

If a group or individual have taken the trouble to negotiate an access arrangement with a landowner, don't be surprised if they get a bit annoyed with anyone who does something to put that agreement at risk.

And before you ask, both sites are accessible to anyone else, provided they come through us. If we take the trouble to get or to keep a site open, then I think we can expect others to follow the procedures that have been agreed.
 
W

wormster

Guest
As most definatley a "Non Club Caver" here's my 2p:

If a mine or cave is gated grilled the first thing i'd do is spend some time doing a bit of background reasarch, to attepmt to find out:

who the land owner is,

if access is ok,

if acess is controlled by an organiseation and contact them and try to get an organised guest visit.

If however a site is grilled but access is legit and legal try to find out what arraingements are in place for getting a "key" (thinking here of a some well known freestone quarries here)

To my own way of thinking its all about bieng sensible and asking the right kind of questions.

If however the site is contentious and has been grilled/gated howevermuch i'm busting too see it I'll hang back and wait for the conditions to come right.

(this HAS happened to one mine that i'm busting to see, now its just a matter of getting bca insurance)

As to the damaging of gates at the Cwmystwyth Mines,
well t'wasn't me and i've no intention of doing same,
somebody did this a while back in the FoD and all members of a well known forum site were all tarred with the same brush by the landowners,
not a happy situation to find yourself in. :mad:

basically I'm a law abiding person (sort of)
 

Jagman

New member
Never been to this particular location, so I have not touched its locks
However there seems to be an assumption here that all illicit entries involve ripping gates off hinges and Stihl sawing through everything in sight.....

I freely confess to visiting lots of places that are legitimately denied to me (either for insurance, club membership or no access at all reasons) Generally no-one will ever know I have been, no visible damage can be found and the only trace of my passing will be footprints.

No harm is done and no foul commited.

I frequently seek ( and seldom get refused) permision from land owners to explore, often this is conditional on low profile visits and NO club involvement of any kind.

As said before, reputable clubs and their members cause as many problems as the "less reputable" amongst us.

If legitimate access carries conditions I will consider the options, on occasion I have elected not to visit a site rather than cause problems for thos who have negotiated access (if it cant be done invisibly)

As for the real gist of the poll, do I have any respect for artificial barriers (gates)? non at all. If I cant get permision to go in legitimately then I will bypass the gate and its doubtful anybody will ever know.

All I would go so far as to suggest is that who wish to take a sneaky look find a way to do it without causing damage, there is usually a way.......
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Jagman

If you have not damaged anything to gain access, then I suspect you are not doing anything that could be described as criminal, unless you are picking a lock perhaps. If you find a way of getting into my property without causing damage, then it is up to me to improve my security. As to whether your actions, if discovered, would upset the owners, well, that is an entirely different question....  :coffee:
 

Jagman

New member
Peter Burgess said:
Jagman

If you have not damaged anything to gain access, then I suspect you are not doing anything that could be described as criminal, unless you are picking a lock perhaps. If you find a way of getting into my property without causing damage, then it is up to me to improve my security. As to whether your actions, if discovered, would upset the owners, well, that is an entirely different question....  :coffee:

Its funny how you become more adept at getting in with a little practice ;)
Only a week or so ago I came out of a mine to find the owner on site, after quietly depositing kit back in the car I went and had a chat to him. Freely admitting where I had been, he was intently curious and came for a wander himself. I f I hadnt gone to speak to him he would never have known I had been underground, he knew a strange car was in the area but nothing else
His only concern was that as few people as possible know about it. Legitimacy can be at least as un-helpful as being a renegade.
As long as no damage is done and nothing taken then it is purely civil trespass, no criminal offence commited.
 
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