North Manchester Caving Groups

langcliffe

Well-known member
The library has been given a photograph album of Dales caves taken about 1950 (probably plus or minus 2 years). They were taken by a chap called Albert Wilkinson, (1926-1989), who married a lady called Elizabeth Emmen in 1952. I am trying to establish the name of the caving club that they belonged to. It must have been a reasonably large club, as they managed to get the resources together for a trip down Lost Johns' Cave via Dome Pitch, to Lyle Cavern with a camera - no mean feat in the days of rope ladders, wet pitches, and bicycle lamps. Members included "Reg", "Stinky", "Eric",  and "Betty" (probably his wife). We suspect that the club was based in the North Manchester area, but we don't know for sure. They were almost certainly Dales based.

Has anyone got any suggestions about the name of the club? Do the names mean anything to anybody? One candidate is North Manchester Caving Club, but I have no idea when they were founded.

wilkinson.jpg
 

mikem

Well-known member
It seems that Grampian have copies of NMCC journals 1 & 2 (1969 & 70), whilst RRCPC have no.2 - maybe one of those has a bit of their history in? (the Caving Library appears to have neither).

Black & Tans Mountaineering & Caving Club were around then (although SE side):
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/who_founded_the_black_and_tans_mc-521218
 

Graigwen

Active member
NMCC were in the electron ladder fabrication business in 1970/72. This was organised by a guy called Steve Greatorex if I remember correctly.

Two of their electron ladders were still in use in one of the I'r de o Ddraenen digs in 2017 !!!

.
 

ALEXW

Member
I was a student at North Manchester Grammar School in the late 60s. I used to cave at weekend with Frank Addis my physics teacher.
I think he caved with The North Manchester Caving Club. I remember spending hours sawing aluminium tube to the correct length for making into ladders.
I remember doing Alum on a prototype ladder made with electrical conduit rungs spaced at, what seemed like, 2 foot spacing. I was fastened to a lifeline by an ex-army steel crab into a hemp rope wrapped around my waist about 5 times. My caving outfit at the time was a boiler suit and layers of wool, a bit heavy when wet. I later bought a goon suit and made my own wet suit with very inflexible neoprene, glue and yellow tape.
I remember the name Steve Greatorex.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Thank you for your replies. I was corresponding with Frank Addis when we were digging Long Rift Pot in 2008, but unfortunately the address I had now bounces, but I suppose 11 years is a long time.
 

mikem

Well-known member
Possibly the same as contributed a photo 3 years ago: https://www.ravenstonedale.org/link/2016/link-june2016.pdf
 

Jenny P

Active member
The group in question actually made caving ladders and these are seen in more clearly in some of the photos which have not yet been posted online.  The ladder-making would have been in the late 1940's or early 1950's - the photos are undated but we know the photograph album ends in 1952 and that the photographer, Albert Wilkinson, and his then girlfriend Betty Emmen (who he married in 1952), were involved in a cave rescue from Alum Pot in September 1948.  We know that Albert and Betty were caving with people their daughter referred to as "Rovers and Rangers" from Middleton in North Manchester, so a possibility is that this could be a Scout group in North Manchester, as opposed to a "caving club".  (She does say that they were part of a club but she doesn't know what it was called.)  However, the group were sufficiently organised to be making their own ladders so this does sound more like a caving club than a Scout group.

The ladders were wooden rungs and hemp sides, as seen in the photo in Lancliffe's original post.  One type, seen there, simply involved rungs with a hole bored, threaded onto the rope and a single knot holding the rung in place (provided the ladder was hung the right way up!).  The other type involved opening the lay of the rope to push the rung through and then whipping the rope above and below the rung with cord to fix the rung in place.  There is a comment in the album re. a photo showing this second type of ladder that it was superior in quality but took longer to make so they tended to make the single-knot variety.
 

Jenny P

Active member
Just checked the original Albert Wilkinson photo album again now it's come back to the British Caving Library and noticed the comment written in the album about the rope ladder made by opening the lay of the rope to push the rung through and then whipping the rope above and below the rung with cord to fix the rung in place.  (This ladder appears in several of the photos and is very easily identifiable, as opposed to the "knotted rope" version which is also in the photos.)

Albert remarks that "... this was the first ladder we made ..." and then goes on to say they changed to the knotted rope version because it was quicker to make.  If it was the first ladder, then that makes it 1948 at the latest because that's when their club was rescued from Alum Pot after a flood on 12 September 1948 and they'd been going for some time by then.

The chap who seems to be the leader of the group and appears in most of the photos is nicknamed "Stinky" and I wondered if that was because he favoured the small carbide lamps we used to use, which were always called "stinkies".  Albert and his girlfriend, who became his wife in 1952, are in many of the photos and are recognisable.

We don't have any of the North Manchester Caving Club items in the British Caving Library but, from the earlier responses, it sounds as if they might have been formed in the 1960's (their Journal No. 1 was dated 1969 according to Mikem) - so that's too late for our group, which was going strong in 1948.

So, who were the club?
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Jenny P said:
So, who were the club?

I've been going through the CRO records for the period, and my firm favourite is currently the Lancashire Climbing and Caving Club. They were founded in 1936, and referenced by the CRO in the 1948.

Does anyone have any contacts for them?
 

mikem

Well-known member
"The club has a proud history of cave exploration but, sadly, despite the word ?Caving? appearing in the club?s name, underground activity has, over recent years, gradually declined to almost nothing."

They do have photos from back in 2006: https://lancashireclimbingandcavingclub.co.uk/gallery/album/caving
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
mikem said:
"The club has a proud history of cave exploration but, sadly, despite the word ?Caving? appearing in the club?s name, underground activity has, over recent years, gradually declined to almost nothing."

They do have photos from back in 2006: https://lancashireclimbingandcavingclub.co.uk/gallery/album/caving

Thank you - I  had found their website and sent off a request.
 

Jenny P

Active member
langcliffe said:
Jenny P said:
So, who were the club?

I've been going through the CRO records for the period, and my firm favourite is currently the Lancashire Climbing and Caving Club. They were founded in 1936, and referenced by the CRO in the 1948.

Does anyone have any contacts for them?

Right, we do have at least one journal of the Lancashire Caving & Climbing Club in the British Caving Library.  It hasn't been properly catalogued yet but I will check on this one tomorrow and see what date it is and whether it throws any light on this.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Jenny P said:
langcliffe said:
Jenny P said:
So, who were the club?

I've been going through the CRO records for the period, and my firm favourite is currently the Lancashire Climbing and Caving Club. They were founded in 1936, and referenced by the CRO in the 1948.

Does anyone have any contacts for them?

Right, we do have at least one journal of the Lancashire Caving & Climbing Club in the British Caving Library.  It hasn't been properly catalogued yet but I will check on this one tomorrow and see what date it is and whether it throws any light on this.

I have had a reply from the Lancashire Climbing and Caving Club, and they have kindly agreed to look into it.
 

mikem

Well-known member
GSG have Vol.3 Nos. 1, 2 (1963-64). Red Rose have a better selection (& from the right time):
Newsletter (1948 ? 1949) Nos. 1, 2, 5 & 15.
Journal 1951, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2011.
Millenium Anthology 2001
Bulletin Summer ?76
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
mikem said:
GSG have Vol.3 Nos. 1, 2 (1963-64). Red Rose have a better selection (& from the right time):
Newsletter (1948 ? 1949) Nos. 1, 2, 5 & 15.
Journal 1951, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2011.
Millenium Anthology 2001
Bulletin Summer ?76

It's good to know that they exist. It means that the LCCC have a good chance of getting a definitive answer to whether or not it was their club involved.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
I was a member of the LCCC whilst at school.

Of note is the fact that it was originally "Lancashire Caving and Climbing Club" but much more recently it seems to have changed its name to "Lancashire Climbing and Caving Club".

I was very active with the club for a few years, with involvement in the Blea Gill Cave discoveries, among other stuff (i.e. when caving had a strong focus and there was lots going on). Some of the very senior members were very much around at the time: I remember many of them well but I don't remember (or even remember hearing of) any of the names mentioned in relation to the photos. So I'm wondering if the club concerned was a different one altogether and not the LCCC.
 

Graigwen

Active member
ALEXW said:
I think he caved with The North Manchester Caving Club. I remember spending hours sawing aluminium tube to the correct length for making into ladders.
I remember doing Alum on a prototype ladder made with electrical conduit rungs spaced at, what seemed like, 2 foot spacing. ...
I remember the name Steve Greatorex.

Now I remember, that at the time most electron ladders had rungs at 9" spacing but NMCC offered a cheaper version with rungs at 12" spacing - this cheap version is the one I obtained from them. My last order was greatly delayed and Steve Greatorex offered the explanation that the clubs premises had been damaged by fire. This might have been as late as 1972.

.
 
Top