Survey with guns ?

JasonC

Well-known member
No, really...  This is an article from the current issue of New Scientist.  Not sure if it'll catch on....

BEFORE the US military killed Osama bin Laden last month, it had spent years pursuing him through the rocky landscape of eastern Afghanistan and neighbouring Pakistan. The Al-Qaida leader repeatedly slipped through the soldiers' grasp, thanks in no small part to the labyrinthine, cave-riddled terrain.

The decade-long search might have gone a little differently, though, if soldiers had access to a new system that can use sound waves from a gunshot to quickly map unknown caves and tunnels. The portable system, created by David Bowen of Acentech in Cambridge, Massachusetts, consists of two microphones placed at the entrance of a cave or tunnel, which are hooked up to a laptop loaded with software designed to decode acoustic signals.

A gun is fired four or five times, with about 5 seconds between each shot. Fifteen to 20 seconds later the map appears on the laptop's screen, with simple graphs that display the area of the cave at different distances, and written explanations of the data, such as "30 feet ahead is a large opening". A portable subwoofer can be used in place of a firearm as the source of the sound waves.

To infer a cave's geometry, the device listens for subtle changes in the way sound reverberates through the chamber's differently sized nooks and crannies. "Every time there is a sudden change in cross-sectional area, it changes the way sound is reflected," Bowen says.

For example, a roomy cave that suddenly narrows into a cramped channel will only permit high frequencies to pass, says Mike Roan of Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg. Most of the low frequencies will rebound towards the cave's entrance and the waiting microphones: the more low frequencies bounce back, the tighter the passageway. The device can also determine whether the sound waves struck a dead end or found an exit at the end of a tunnel.

Bowen, who presented his work at last month's meeting of the Acoustical Society of America in Seattle, explains that having two microphones in two different locations - like two ears - is better than one because they hear different aspects of the same sonic event. The microphone on the left side of the cave's entrance picks up details that the one on the right would miss.

So far Bowen and his team have tested the device at a railroad underpass, in a mock network of sewer pipes in Georgia - part of a military training facility - and in several outdoor tunnels and caves in and around Boston. The device has obvious military applications for soldiers, but it could also be helpful to miners, pipeline engineers and archaeologists. Bowen next plans to test a high-powered propane canon as a sound source, to see if a louder noise will allow him to build more detailed maps.
 

SamT

Moderator
carabeener said:
Cool! Just make sure I am not in the cave when setting off the "high powered propane cannon!" :eek:

So your fine with them firing guns at you  :-\
 

Roger W

Well-known member
Sounds great.  You can combine surveying with removing inconvenient boulders now.  :)
 

graham

New member
Roger W said:
Sounds great.  You can combine surveying with removing inconvenient boulders now.  :)

Yeah, but you then have to redraw the survey when the boulders have gone. :coffee:
 

AndyF

New member
What a load of cobblers... thats another bit of valueable R&D money wasted pointlessly. I'm amazed the New Scientist will publish such a heap of snake oil.

No doubt they will have a different interpretation of the word 'map' to what we expect. :-\

"Show me it working"....

 

JasonC

Well-known member
graham said:
Yeah, but you then have to redraw the survey when the boulders have gone.

- and sweep up the pile of straws that have dropped off the roof... :(

On the other hand, there must be some mileage in the idea - bats have using the technique with great success for some time
 

robjones

New member
SamT said:
I'm with Andy on this one..

Surely improvements in 3d laser scanning would be a far more appropriate technology to develop for the job they want it to do.

see http://www.slideshare.net/Maxisurgeon/laser-scanning-for-cave-surveying

(and didn't bill stone do something with one of these strapped to a aqua sub thing for mapping florida's underwater world).

RCAHMW have recently surveyed the chamber in Ystrad Einion Lead-Copper Mine in North Ceredigion where the famous underground waterwheel resides. From surface demonstrations of the technique, the laser seems to be positioned no more than a few tens of metres from the subject and two or three locations are required to build-up a 3-D image.

A larger scale application is Lidar, in which plane-borne lasers are used.

3-D laser scanning certainly has applications for surveying large chambers and for surveying in great detail.
 

graham

New member
Currently the most impressive surveys I've seen are those done by the Nottingham Caves Project, which use a high density laser scan overlain with photography. I cannot see it yet being usable for the average cave survey owing to the large amount of data being collected and the rather bulky and delicate nature of the kit being used.

Having said that, the DistoX/PDA/Therion technique is similar albeit with a much lower density laser scan and with drawings rather than photography.

It is rather a shame that this cutting edge, as far as caving is concerned, technique relies on obsolete kit.
 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
JasonC said:
... bats have using the technique with great success for some time

I think bats probably have it sorted, ultrasonic measurements in relatively stable temperature and humidity could be pretty accurate over most UK cave scales. "Fly" though with a set of ultrasonic range finders (LRUD or rotating or side-scan)...
 

SamT

Moderator
Am I right in thinking that our collective thoughts are that firing guns or propane cannons into caves to survey them is just about the daftest thing we've ever heard of, especially in the light of more suitable technologies that still have plenty of scope for development.
 

Rhys

Moderator
Yeah. It's an interesting idea, but probably of no practical use to cavers. Vibration damage to delicate formations and seriously annoying cave fauna spring to mind as issues!

As you were...

BTW, I already do a bit of echo location myself when digging; Shouting "Coo-ee!" or "Yoo-hoo!" at the dig face to see what sort  of echo I get back and speculate on how big a chamber I'm about to enter. It sounds quite camp, but it works!

Rhys
 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
I suppose it depends a little bit on whether you think there might be some one in the cave waiting to kill you  :unsure:
 
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