When were the pitch and roof-step symbols first used?

wookey

Active member
I've just been sent the following mail, looking for info on the history of the 'ledge symbol', by which I think he means what we call
'pitch edge' and 'ceiling-step' symbols. I really don't know the answers so thought I'd ask here.

I've also posted it to the cave-surveying mailing list:
http://lists.survex.com/pipermail/cave-surveying/2011-March/000313.html                                               

+++ Dwight Livingston [2011-03-17 22:09 -0400]:
> Wookey
>
> Greetings. I'm a U.S. native, West Virginia caver, and slated to give a talk
> this summer at our NSS annual convention. The paper is on "Ledge Symbols in                                         
> Profile Views", and it'd add some depth if I could find some history of the
> use of ledge symbols in plan views. I believe U.S. usage started in
> Missouri, but I suspect the symbols were imported, probably from England or
> France. So I'm looking for a source.
>
> Here's what I'm looking for . . .

> Who's the expert in the history of cave cartography and willing to answer a
> few questions?

Not sure. Dave Irwin had excellent historical knowledge but died
recently. I would have tried Bryan Ellis too, but he's dead as well.
I'm not sure we really have a particular 'history of cave cartography'
expert in the country - not that I've noticed anyway. Anyone?

> What is the best available text on the history of cave cartography?

Trevor Shaw's 'History of cave science' is the only one I can recall. But it doesn't go into detail about symbols.

> Who drew the first ceiling ledge symbols, when did they do it, and what cave
> was it?

Good question. All I know is that it was in the BCRA symbol set when
I starting the 1980s. I think this set was specified quite some time
earlier - 1960s probably but I can't find a reference right now.

> Know of any examples of ledge symbols in profile views?

I have seen various 'tunnel going back into/out of page'
representations, but I can't recall a case where the floor/ceiling
edge symbols were used for this. They probably have been though, as
it's the same thing in elevation.

> Any leads you can send to me will be most appreciated.                         
>
> Dwight Livingston
>
 

martinr

Active member
Not sure if this helps  but British Caving (Cullingford 1953) has a set of symbols  to be used on plans "selected from suggestions by exerienced Brtitish cave surveyors and from American French and other European sources"

although I am not sure what the symbol is you are refering to - can you upload it?

 

graham

New member
martinr beat me to it, I was going to suggest the Butcher CRG reference. It may also be worth looking at the Railton OFD1 survey to see what symbols they actually used. I know that survey inspired the UBSS surveyors of Coolagh (published 1950). That survey was too small scale for such symbols. The G.B. survey published in 1951 does not use any standardised symbols. such features are delineated by simple dashed lines.

Willie Stanton's 1952 Gough's survey does not use standardised symbols, either. They were seemingly not in use on Mendip at least, before this time.

I'll drag the CRG volume out, later.
 

martinr

Active member
We could end up going in a circle (or closed loop?) on this.

Our American friends think they imported it from the UK but CRG used symbols suggested by exerienced Brtitish cave surveyors and from American... sources  :LOL:
 

graham

New member
The CRG pub has exactly the same diagrams as British Caving. Hardly surprising as both were written by Butcher. The symbol for a change in floor height is a simple line with a figure, such as +7 or -1 indicating the amount of rise or drop.

So the currently used symbol has a later genesis, or import to this country.
 

spanners

New member
Pitch and roof step symbols have changed over the years.
In ULSA explorations Jnl 69. They use a ticked line to show a drop but the ticks are on the solid rock side. This seems more logical to shade the solid rock than air.
Avens are just the aven shape with a ring of dots around the outside. Again the solid side. (page 43, in Car pot shows a good example)
And a pit in the floor was the same but with the dots on the inside. This is a bit like todays symbol. (page 5, Notts Pot, you can make them out).

 
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