Assuming you have a central maillon on your harness - do you clip your Stop's locking carabiner onto your maillon, or do you clip it separately onto your harness tie-in loops?

I clip mine in separately onto the harness below/outside the maillon, so that during changeovers the Stop carabiner does not interfere so much with the other junk on the maillon.

Presumably, if your harness loops are connected to your maillon and you then subsequently connect a carabiner (with Stop attached) to the same harness loops, aren't they sufficiently wide apart (by the strain on the harness) for the carabiner to end up taking the majority loading and therefore putting a three way load on an item which was specifically designed to be taking a two way loading?

Put another way, a maillon is used because it can cope with loadings from any direction whereas carabiners were designed to be loaded along the long axis. If they are designed for something and the loading placed is other than in accordance with the design then it may be an unwise practice; especially if you are abseiling and the three way load on the carabiner breaks it open and you plummet.

Just an observation. I'm going to stick to cluttering up my maillon and keeping my carabiners loaded along their long axis.

Although I doubt it would be much use in practice, another solution to cluttering up your maillon would be to get two aluminium ones and use both with your harness, in parallel - that way you could load your abseiling gear onto one and your prussiking gear onto another but I still think it's going to make life more complex than just getting used to having everything tight and cosy on the one maillon.

What say you?

Yes you are absolutely right about the carabiner tending to load improperly on a double-loop harness. But mine is a single-loop harness, and I use a pear-shaped biner which much reduces the problem. I am considering moving to two maillons though as you suggest, but am wondering if I should just surrender to the Petzl-recommended scheme of placing the Stop biner on the central maillon, at the cost of increasing the clutter. Hence the question.

I don't use a Stop - I use a Bobbin - same connection type of course. I clip it to the central maillon unless crawlng a long way or prusiking. I then move it to a gear loop on the side of my harness so it's out of the way.

If I need to change from prusik to descent its easy enough to clip back on the maillon.

Mind you a friend of mine was once about to abseil into Eldon Hole when he heard some ripping noise - he still had his descender clipped to a gear loop which was near the front of his harness (mine is on the side and not so easy to make this mistake). Luckily he realised what was happening in time and grabbed the rope above the descender and pulled himself back onto the ledge with his eyes on stalks! :!:

Sounds to me like you're using a climbing harness, Ian, and there's nothing wrong in that at all, except perhaps that your centre of gravity will be higher (good thing) but that your tie-in loop will also be higher and hence it may make your prussiking "stance/style" ever so slightly less efficient. Also, I bet it's more comfortable too!

My concern was based on you using a Petzl avanti or fractio harness and using a small HMS or D carabiner loaded across the two tie-in points; since this is not the case then the concern is unfounded but the reason for this response is to double check that someone "out there" who reads this thread doesn't end up doing precisely this!

what do you mean by 'a single loop harness'. Im interested as to the orientation of your stop and croll. Is there a belay loop that you use (as per normal climbing harnesses) or do you thread a mallion round both the leg loop and waist belt bits.

It is an American caving sit harness (a cave rescue harness actually - very comfy) that has one big loop at the front oriented so the maillon lies 'flat' against you i.e. the same configuration you'd get from a two-loop harness. So the stop/croll orientation is identical to what you would use... nice low point etc, really ideal for frogging. But the harness is not the issue. It's all that crap on one maillon that leads me to attach the stop separately - thru the same harness loop as the central maillon, but on a separate carabiner (or separate maillon as has been suggested).

I've had no real difficulties with this arrangement over the years, just wondered if anyone else has tried it and what they thought of it.

Ah - I see.

Personally - I have never really thought that the stuff on my D mallion is excesive or gets in the way. About the most tricky manoeuvre is to put your stop onto your D when the croll is loaded - especially if one of your cows tails is loaded too, but its never stopped me.

from left to right on my D I have Jammer safety leash - on a 7mm oval mallion - Cows tails, Croll.

Stop/Braking krab (if needed) are added or removed as needed. (do worry about dropping my stop sometimes).
8)

I keep my jammer leash and my cowstails on opposite sides of the croll to keep them untangled. They're different colors too.

I think moving from a triangle to a D maillon will help me keep things sorted. After 25 years I guess its time for a change...

Two pence worth...

I have the jammer leash on a 7mm maillon on the lower side of the D maillon, below everything else.

I keep my stop attached (except of course when crawling) even when jugging, just in case I need to get down in a hurry.

I keep my jammer leash and my cowstails on opposite sides of the croll to keep them untangled. They're different colors too.

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I always keep them on the left. If you look your croll from above - it has a nice flat side on its left whereas the right has the cam and lever thingybob. by having all your other gubbiins on the left - there is less chance of any of it interfering or snagging in the cam.

They're different colors too.

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Mine are different colours too - brown and brown.

I have the jammer leash on a 7mm maillon on the lower side of the D maillon, below everything else

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Used to do that - as prescribed by the nigel Atkins school of thought. However now I dont for two reasons.

firstly the 7mm mallion is a good spanner for the gate on the D, maybe a bit to good as when jugging it can undo the gate on the D (as actually happened to me once).

Secondly - during complex rigging/climbing/traverses etc, if you weight your hand jammer onto your harness - it twists the D right round which is A uncomfortable, and B it is then impossible to do anything with your stop/croll.

I keep my stop attached (except of course when crawling) even when jugging, just in case I need to get down in a hurry.

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Nah - IMHO the extra faff on rebelays and whilst rigging etc, over time, will outweigh the 5 seconds it takes to put your stop on in an emergency.

I keep all my kit on the top of the D maillon - for precisely the reason you mentioned SamT. It is pretty scary when you realise you have managed to undo your central maillon halfway up a pitch :shock: . Pulling your maillon into your pelvis, as you would with the jammer leash on the bottom of the maillon, is pretty uncomfortable too.
I have my SRT kit L-R rack, jammer leash, cowstails, croll. I certainly wouldn't put anything on the R of the croll as surely that just obstructs it opening.

I do keep my rack attached all the time, except sometimes when crawling. It does snag occasionally but that way you won't accidently abseil off a gear loop, or realise you have forgotten it.

I do keep my rack attached all the time

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I keep my stop attached (except of course when crawling) even when jugging, just in case I need to get down in a hurry.

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What about the narrows in nettle and other such vertical obstructions - surely it would make sense to have your stop/rack on your gear loop out the way on the side.

I might keep my Stop in 'ready' position if there are short distances between descending pitches, but otherwise I keep it clipped to my belt where I can reach it easily or slide it to the back for crawls. Really, there are very few instances when you are going to need to change over from ascent to descent mid-rope. Here in Canada the opposite is more likely to happen, where a significant amount of our descents are down virgin drops (a couple to several a year). In those cases I will certainly have the croll rigged and ready to go, put on my footloops and rack my jammer off my belt. I utilize a sash-arrangement for the croll, which is a simple fixed loop round the neck that is tensioned by poking one elbow/arm/shoulder thru the loop when required.

I connect all my gear to the D mallion work from left to right with the stop or rack the last thing on the right hand side. I use a chest hearness that can be clipped in or out. I always have up gear available - just never know when you may need it.

The lack of up gear has contributed to a recent Harwoods Hole problem!! s

ian mckenzie said:

Here in Canada the opposite is more likely to happen, where a significant amount of our descents are down virgin drops (a couple to several a year).

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Stop trying to make us jealous!

I very rarely find it so night I need to remove my rack - certainly not in the Nettle narrows.

Easiets way to avoid all the confusion is to place a big steel ringbolt ito your pelvis. No worry about harnesses or anything. You could even comine it with a lamp bracket directly into the front of your skull

SamT said:

I have the jammer leash on a 7mm maillon on the lower side of the D maillon, below everything else

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Used to do that - as prescribed by the nigel Atkins school of thought. However now I dont for two reasons.

firstly the 7mm mallion is a good spanner for the gate on the D, maybe a bit to good as when jugging it can undo the gate on the D (as actually happened to me once).

Secondly - during complex rigging/climbing/traverses etc, if you weight your hand jammer onto your harness - it twists the D right round which is A uncomfortable, and B it is then impossible to do anything with your stop/croll.

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Concede to maillon/spanner affect. Countered it by cranking up central maillon before setting off. The odd jiggle from the 7mm on the C.M. IMHO is negliglbe... but I bet I'm corrected!!

I keep my stop attached (except of course when crawling) even when jugging, just in case I need to get down in a hurry.

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Nah - IMHO the extra faff on rebelays and whilst rigging etc, over time, will outweigh the 5 seconds it takes to put your stop on in an emergency.[/quote]

Unless it's dropped!

stu said:

Unless it's dropped!

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Erm - italian hitch then.

:jedi: