Think on before continuing your filthy inferior European ways
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royfellows
Well-known member
So what would they think of Chinese rope?
ZombieCake
Well-known member
What did they normally use? Ocean liner mooring lines? Maybe the cheerleaders they have at the bottom of each pitch could have provided assistance in the case of accidents?
Subpopulus Hibernia
Active member
And a direct rebuttal from 1993...
REBELAYS: WHO NEEDS THEM
Both Americans and Europeans are guilty of talking about "American" and "European" rigging. What they usually mean is that Europeans use rebelays and intermediate anchors a lot. Americans do not. This situation is due to the fact that rebelays are needed for many European pits, but for very few in the U.S. So a European would probably rig Hellhole the same way that we do. Similarly, skilled cavers in the US recognize that in a few places, rebelays are absolutely essential.
Lechuguilla Cave has an interesting spot, the Aragonitemare, where reluctance to rebelay nearly led to an occupied rope being severed. The rigging has since been corrected. Some TAG caves provide a provocative choice as well: use a rebelay or be beaten by whitewater until you drown.
At one convention I overheard a person of some caving fame telling a large audience that American rope is so strong that rebelays are never needed. The image that immediately came to my mind was Jim Smith in Mexico, having forgotten his knife, cutting 7/16th caving rope with two blows from a Huautla rock. Maybe Jim should perform this feat at conventions, for those who think American rope is indestructible.
Of course, since rebelays are uncommon in the U.S., most cavers never really need to learn this technique, right? Well there are a couple of reasons to reconsider this attitude. Ropework, if you really think about it, is needed for only a very small part of vertical caving. Canadian Hole, McFails and Cass Cave are all primarily horizontal, yet cavers have died doing ropework there. The inherent dangers of vertical spots are so much greater than those of the flat parts that the horizontal/vertical passage ratio is totally meaningless. It's the interesting spots that will get you.
In other words, if you're ever in a spot where rebelay technique is needed, very little else will do.
Along similar lines, vertical cavers should realize that the skills necessary for rebelays are identical to those needed for handling problems that might occur in any vertical cave-- things like getting short-roped, needing to pass a knot, or aborting an ascent. So take a little of the time normally spent practicing for the ropewalking speed championship and broaden your skills base. Your loved ones may be thankful some day.
Note: For a completely different opinion on the above subject, see Steve Knutson's analysis of the death of Chris Yeager in the most recent American Caving Accidents. Steve and I disagree rather strongly.
From here: http://ferforge.tripod.com/Srt001.htm
REBELAYS: WHO NEEDS THEM
Both Americans and Europeans are guilty of talking about "American" and "European" rigging. What they usually mean is that Europeans use rebelays and intermediate anchors a lot. Americans do not. This situation is due to the fact that rebelays are needed for many European pits, but for very few in the U.S. So a European would probably rig Hellhole the same way that we do. Similarly, skilled cavers in the US recognize that in a few places, rebelays are absolutely essential.
Lechuguilla Cave has an interesting spot, the Aragonitemare, where reluctance to rebelay nearly led to an occupied rope being severed. The rigging has since been corrected. Some TAG caves provide a provocative choice as well: use a rebelay or be beaten by whitewater until you drown.
At one convention I overheard a person of some caving fame telling a large audience that American rope is so strong that rebelays are never needed. The image that immediately came to my mind was Jim Smith in Mexico, having forgotten his knife, cutting 7/16th caving rope with two blows from a Huautla rock. Maybe Jim should perform this feat at conventions, for those who think American rope is indestructible.
Of course, since rebelays are uncommon in the U.S., most cavers never really need to learn this technique, right? Well there are a couple of reasons to reconsider this attitude. Ropework, if you really think about it, is needed for only a very small part of vertical caving. Canadian Hole, McFails and Cass Cave are all primarily horizontal, yet cavers have died doing ropework there. The inherent dangers of vertical spots are so much greater than those of the flat parts that the horizontal/vertical passage ratio is totally meaningless. It's the interesting spots that will get you.
In other words, if you're ever in a spot where rebelay technique is needed, very little else will do.
Along similar lines, vertical cavers should realize that the skills necessary for rebelays are identical to those needed for handling problems that might occur in any vertical cave-- things like getting short-roped, needing to pass a knot, or aborting an ascent. So take a little of the time normally spent practicing for the ropewalking speed championship and broaden your skills base. Your loved ones may be thankful some day.
Note: For a completely different opinion on the above subject, see Steve Knutson's analysis of the death of Chris Yeager in the most recent American Caving Accidents. Steve and I disagree rather strongly.
From here: http://ferforge.tripod.com/Srt001.htm
cap n chris
Well-known member
Question for purveyors of US style rigging philosophy:
Say there's a 100m pitch. Nice straight drop against a wall, no rub points. Easy peasy. Can be rigged as a single hang.
The same pitch could be split into (say) 10 rebelayed sections of 10m apiece. More rope is required so that's a con but a pro is that up to ten cavers can simultaneously ascend it. Assume it takes one person 15 minutes to ascend then that's a time saving for a group of six cavers in the order of 1hr:15m.
Which is better?
Say there's a 100m pitch. Nice straight drop against a wall, no rub points. Easy peasy. Can be rigged as a single hang.
The same pitch could be split into (say) 10 rebelayed sections of 10m apiece. More rope is required so that's a con but a pro is that up to ten cavers can simultaneously ascend it. Assume it takes one person 15 minutes to ascend then that's a time saving for a group of six cavers in the order of 1hr:15m.
Which is better?
Tseralo
Active member
Cap'n Chris said:
The difference is their rope walking setups it can be done a can climb 100m significantly faster than a standard frog system and with less effort. Here a video that shows it. Its much harder to pass rebelays with a rope walker hence why they see limited use in Europe. I also have a feeling their pots or pits as they call them are significantly dryer than the average European pot hole so a bit of waiting around is less of an issue.
nearlywhite
Active member
It's (TAG) generally warmer - as for drier... they seem to have a penchant for just chucking the rope down, tending to lie in the path of least resistance i.e. where the water goes.
They (TAG cavers) also put multiple people on rope at a time as rope walkers don't produce much bounce so your time saving doesn't really add up.
I'd like to point out that the variation in practice is huge (even in rope walker systems) so talking about northern Alabama pit bouncers isn't really talking about the 'American' style. There are plenty that frog (or Texas), and plenty of systems with many rebelays.
They (TAG cavers) also put multiple people on rope at a time as rope walkers don't produce much bounce so your time saving doesn't really add up.
I'd like to point out that the variation in practice is huge (even in rope walker systems) so talking about northern Alabama pit bouncers isn't really talking about the 'American' style. There are plenty that frog (or Texas), and plenty of systems with many rebelays.
Kenilworth
New member
Cap'n Chris said:
I don't think the US-style philosophy exists. There is no standardization of rigging or gear or technique. I'm sure we could imagine endless scenarios that favor one type of rigging or another.
I personally use 11mm ropes because they are cheap and make my rigging as simple as it can safely be. Having done original exploration of many vertical caves, I have never installed a rebelay or experienced rope damage from rub points.
I cannot prove, but believe, that much of the most elegant and complex rigging is practically unnecessary, but is an enjoyable part of caving for some individuals.
It is ridiculous to allow nationalism to influence one's feelings about something so simple as vertical caving. The NSS News and ACA have been guilty of many instances of embarrassing nationalism over the years.