Gunnerfleet Cave

langcliffe

Well-known member
April 24th 1935:

"We had dinner at 3.30 p.m. and set off for Gunner Fleet at 4.15 loaded with the tackle I had brought. We entered the cave at 5.0 p.m. and as I was going along I got a terrible headache, by the time I got to the first chamber I was feeling as though I could not carry on. We collected two boxes full of stalactites and tied some larger ones to a plank, then Mr. Simpson took a photograph and we worked through to the second chamber, by that time I was feeling quite fit. He then set to work cutting out stalagmites, he broke two off and packed them, then we worked them to the entrance, they were very heavy and we were glad when we got them intact to the entrance chamber. We then worked the boxes of stalactites through and we returned to the second chamber. Mr. Simpson was then working at the 4 feet ?mite? I went to help him while Longbottom took the camera forward, we used the hacksaw. The ?mite? itself was on a loose stone and when we tried to break it the boulder rocked. When we had nearly cut through it broke off and we packed it and worked it forward. It was not heavy and I carried it most of the way. We got to the entrance at 10.0 p.m. and loaded up. We left the two shorter stalagmites and I took the box of stalactites and the camera. We walked back with our head lamps going to show the way; on arriving at camp we had a good supper and got to bed at 11.30 p.m."


Those were the days, my friends....
 

rhychydwr1

Active member
I am a bit puzzled.  Is this the Eli Simpson of BSA fame?  and what was he doing with the speleothems?  Was the cave about to be quarried away?
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
rhychydwr1 said:
I am a bit puzzled.  Is this the Eli Simpson of BSA fame?  and what was he doing with the speleothems?  Was the cave about to be quarried away?

It was Eli Simpson, the cave scientist of BSA fame, and it's simply just what he did. The same journal recounts similar episodes in Skirwith, Hardrawkin, White Scar and other places.

As to what happened to "the specimens" - who knows?

When I first read it, I was shocked to the core. My view of the man absolutely plummeted.  It's all very well saying that we live in a different era, but he knew that what he was doing was irreversible. I remember stal. bashing with Mel Gascoyne, but at least there was some discretion in the process, and we got to learn a lot about the history of  Dales caves in the process.
 

Speleofish

Active member
I had a brief moment when I hoped this was a 'rescue' operation to remove stal from something that was about to be quarried away. Clearly not!

Eli Simpson was long before my time and from what I heard about him, he had a rather Voldemort reputation. If that's accurate, this would seem to support it....
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Don't be too hard on Cymmie. Without him having catalysed the great exodus from the BSA circa 1946 there would be no Northern Pennine Club or Red Rose Cave & Pothole Club!
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
This years edition of the North Craven Heritage Trust Journal (published 2 or 3 months ago) contains a feature on the late Jack Myers. It's illustrated with some of Jack's own images, including a "selfie" in Gunnerfleet Cave, which looks nicely decorated. Without digging it out I can't remember the date of this image but it would be interesting to learn whether this was before or after the dastardly deed alluded to above.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
I don't think comments such as "For f***'s sake, John!!!!" are particularly helpful in persuading people of whatever point you're trying to make.

Cymmie almost single handedly kept the BSA alive throughout the war years and was largely responsible for keeping the BSA premises at Cragdale going (in Settle, where the police station used to be). He also left a marvellous legacy of caving documentation and early filmwork - and was the driving force behind many of the first proper surveys of many of our classic potholes. No-one would reasonably argue he didn't have some bad points but he should be given credit for what he did achieve.

No-one is all bad or all good; in some ways history has been very unkind to Cymmie. Things came to a head as the war ended and there was a big bust up. The problem is that "history" is usually written (in the main) by those who win wars. Drill a little deeper and you usually find things aren't as simple as they at first appear.

I ought to clarify that in no way do I condone the unnecessary removal of speleothems.

(The anecdotal tale of stals being mined for export to southern show caves may be misleading. If true, this is usually attributed to stals removed from Sleets Gill Cave rather than Gunnerfleet. It's more likely they went to artificial grottos in gardens of wealthy Victorian Londoners. Cymmie's era was well after this of course. I don't think he should be blamed for ransacking caves on an industrial scale for profit unless there is hard evidence.)
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
RobinGriffiths said:
What was the crap show cave in Cheddar? I'm sure there was one apart from Gough and Cox.

Was it "Waterfall Cave"? Went in it some time in the 1970s I think; I remember being underwhelmed. It seemed more like a walled off alcove and I think the "waterfall" was being pumped.

However this is all based on distant memory. I'm sure Mendip cavers will be able to give a better answer than mine.
 

LeckFell

New member
Norbert Casteret exploring the great cavern of Cagire (English translation of Ten Years under the Earth, 1940):

?Cave pearls are so little known that one professor of geology first heard about them from me, and so rare that I have never seen any; and there before my eyes! I thought of Ali Baba in the Forty Thieves? cave. It was a poor treasure judged by the market value, no doubt, but a priceless find for one who had studied every variety of concretion, and who found here in actual course of formation the strangest of them ? the oolite. ? I filled my hat with the best pearls, some of them as large as pigeon?s eggs; the smallest, pin-head sized, covered the bottom of the basin, and I put a fistful in my pocket. I went away happy in my find, but not without gnawings of conscience at having pillaged the secret laboratory, whose work, perhaps of centuries, had produced my booty.?

Casteret instinctively knew that what he was doing was wrong but he still did it. I think it is important to put the actions of Simpson in the context of the mindset of underground visitors in the early 1900s. That does not excuse Casteret or Simpson ? or the many others who at some point plundered our caves in the past. We must all keep educating underground visitors that what they see is precious and should not be touched, damaged or stolen.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
(Grins) - I was right about that 3rd Cheddar show cave - just found it in my caving diary. I was a youngster at the time. Here's what I wrote, verbatim:

19-4-74    WATERFALL "CAVE" (cost 10p)

Before doing Lamb Leer Caverns we had been for a pint at Cheddar and had had a look at Waterfall Cave. This consists of alcoves in the cliff blocked off from sunlight by walls and with tropical fish tanks! Also the water for both waterfalls is pumped from the river! Good for a laugh.


(There is also a note that the admission fee for Cox's Cave was 22 p and for Gough's was 25p.

For completeness - and mainly for the amusement of Wessex members - the three other people on that Lamb Leer trip were all WCC regulars. One of them was Black Wal, a real character who had lost a hand and had a hook instead. As he was ascending the 60ft iron ladder on the entrance shaft his hook fell off and hit me on the head. It was an early lesson on the wisdom of not standing gawping up pitches when someone else was ascending.

I came to know the Wessex whilst still an extremely young caver. I've always been grateful for the way the club looked after me (thank you!). Later on I joined and was a member for a number of years. It was with great reluctance that I allowed my membership to lapse later on because I was just too busy caving up north.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Good comment above LeckFell.

Isn't there a list of essential equipment for speleology somewhere in Martel's "Irlande et les Cavernes Anglaises" which includes a sledge hammer to smash off the stalagmites? (I don't have a copy to look it up in, although I've nowt better to do today as it's slinging it down here in the Dales.) Yet Martel is internationally acclaimed as the "Father of Speleology". We should view such acts of cave vandalism very much in the context of the times when they occurred; folk usually just didn't know any better.

There's no excuse for large scale removal of speleothems purely for collection purposes nowadays of course - and your point about educating people is spot on.  (y)
 

Fulk

Well-known member
I don't think comments such as "For f***'s sake, John!!!!" are particularly helpful in persuading people of whatever point you're trying to make.

Please accept my aapologies.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
(The anecdotal tale of stals being mined for export to southern show caves may be misleading. If true, this is usually attributed to stals removed from Sleets Gill Cave rather than Gunnerfleet. It's more likely they went to artificial grottos in gardens of wealthy Victorian Londoners.)

Upper Eglin's Hole was well harvested by Victorians, but another crop should be available in a few thousand years. I once wrote a conservation report on the place for some public body or other which included the words: "The obvious Victorian vandalism in the area around Rhinoceros Island is especially worthy of attention, providing tangible evidence of the fragility of the cave environment, and how such damage is effectively forever."

As far as Cymmie is concerned, I can understand how he might want a couple of specimens for a speleological museum or some similar motivation, but the extent of the ransacking in a number of different caves in the space of a couple of weeks as documented by Binns beggers belief. I wonder if memories of that was one of the reasons for Leakey starting up the Cave Preservation Society.

 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Fulk said:
I don't think comments such as "For f***'s sake, John!!!!" are particularly helpful in persuading people of whatever point you're trying to make.

Please accept my aapologies.

:-[ Sorry, I hope that comment didn't sound too aggressive.

And thanks.  (y)
 
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