Equality and Inclusions in Caving Clubs - Try Dive Spin-Off Thread
- Thread starter Tommy
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Disgusted from Cornwall.
New member
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Debauchery down South
New member
I identify as a cis-nonconformist, non-binary, queer women (plural: I believe the concept of singularity to be oppressive) of colour, and I for one have had no problems in the caving community. The occasional quips of "where's crocs? Oh sorry, couldn't see the polar bear in the snow storm" when we're out on our bi-annual solidarity walk underground does become tiresome, but if it means I deconstruct what little privilege I have, that's fine by me.
We quickly realised that since rejecting the BCA in the SW, we had the ultimate opportunity to re-educate the dirty, smelly, male cavers to new and lightened ways. First we realised that wearing helmets only created division in the community: some where white and this triggered me deeply. Next, it was appreciated that in light of not having any money after we'd donated it all to Lily Allen in her desperate bid to save the refugees; the only way to be inclusive to new members of the group meant we'd all have to forfeit our oversuits and explore naked so as to be inclusive to these desperately vulnerable people. Our AGM committee were very impressed with our limited use of fabric, as now the filthy, capitalistic sweatshops at Landjoff and Titan would feel the full force of our monetary protest.
Finally, it was unanimously agreed that to ensure equality for all, and in light of not meeting our strict 50/50 quota of ALL identifiable demographic groups, we would simply have no choice but to cease using torches or any other source of illumination underground. We're proud of our status in the South West as "Most Equal Caving Club" and our internationally recognised solidarity with the LGBTQAITXYZ++ community. We truly believe that our work to dismantle and reconstruct the legacy of cis, white, rich, able-bodied men that has set the precedent throughout the last few hundred years has been instrumental at leading the cutting edge of diversity, equality and inclusion in the caving scene.
We're only a small group, and our hacksaw officer - speaking above - also acts as our feminist correspondence rep and is a barometer in matters where microagressions are likely. We also have a homosexual and a ginger.
AN OPEN INVITE TO JOIN US IN THE SOUTH WEST - we are looking for further involvement from the Lesbian community. A position in our diversity committee is guaranteed.
Please apply @ l0ckcuttr1984@4chan.com
salam alaikum brothers, let us unite against the patriarchy!
We quickly realised that since rejecting the BCA in the SW, we had the ultimate opportunity to re-educate the dirty, smelly, male cavers to new and lightened ways. First we realised that wearing helmets only created division in the community: some where white and this triggered me deeply. Next, it was appreciated that in light of not having any money after we'd donated it all to Lily Allen in her desperate bid to save the refugees; the only way to be inclusive to new members of the group meant we'd all have to forfeit our oversuits and explore naked so as to be inclusive to these desperately vulnerable people. Our AGM committee were very impressed with our limited use of fabric, as now the filthy, capitalistic sweatshops at Landjoff and Titan would feel the full force of our monetary protest.
Finally, it was unanimously agreed that to ensure equality for all, and in light of not meeting our strict 50/50 quota of ALL identifiable demographic groups, we would simply have no choice but to cease using torches or any other source of illumination underground. We're proud of our status in the South West as "Most Equal Caving Club" and our internationally recognised solidarity with the LGBTQAITXYZ++ community. We truly believe that our work to dismantle and reconstruct the legacy of cis, white, rich, able-bodied men that has set the precedent throughout the last few hundred years has been instrumental at leading the cutting edge of diversity, equality and inclusion in the caving scene.
We're only a small group, and our hacksaw officer - speaking above - also acts as our feminist correspondence rep and is a barometer in matters where microagressions are likely. We also have a homosexual and a ginger.
AN OPEN INVITE TO JOIN US IN THE SOUTH WEST - we are looking for further involvement from the Lesbian community. A position in our diversity committee is guaranteed.
Please apply @ l0ckcuttr1984@4chan.com
salam alaikum brothers, let us unite against the patriarchy!
NewStuff
New member
We don't give two fecks what colour you are, what bits you have, your religion or lack of, who/what you fancy etc. We're interested in 1) You're not a dickhead. 2) You have a decent, longterm interest in going underground, and that you can dish out and take as much pisstaking as we do - It's a lot.
People we go underground with vary from teenage girls (Stop it!) to old men. It's not because we're PC or any other inclusive cack like that, it's because you're evaluated soley on your attitude and abilities.
People we go underground with vary from teenage girls (Stop it!) to old men. It's not because we're PC or any other inclusive cack like that, it's because you're evaluated soley on your attitude and abilities.
aricooperdavis
Moderator
South & Cornwall: It's unusual that I'm happy to stop reading a post after the first sentence - you needn't have wasted your time writing the rest of it.
Topimo: Exeter Uni is in a funny position where our committee is mostly female (2F:1M) but our club is mostly male (3F:4M). Over the last 3 years we've seen this kind of spread, but we're quite happy with it as it feels reasonably mixed, especially compared to other sports clubs. Obviously we don't pick and choose members, but I'm sure there are ways that we could improve the diversity of our advertising.
I'd be interested to hear how the members feel about the gender divide in the club, maybe through an anonymised survey or something, as I have spoken to some people would find things like changing by the side of the road, or sharing showers in the SWCC uncomfortable. There's an interesting article in one of our really old journals that is a sort of protest against gender discrimination - I'll dig it out when I'm up at our library today
Topimo: Exeter Uni is in a funny position where our committee is mostly female (2F:1M) but our club is mostly male (3F:4M). Over the last 3 years we've seen this kind of spread, but we're quite happy with it as it feels reasonably mixed, especially compared to other sports clubs. Obviously we don't pick and choose members, but I'm sure there are ways that we could improve the diversity of our advertising.
I'd be interested to hear how the members feel about the gender divide in the club, maybe through an anonymised survey or something, as I have spoken to some people would find things like changing by the side of the road, or sharing showers in the SWCC uncomfortable. There's an interesting article in one of our really old journals that is a sort of protest against gender discrimination - I'll dig it out when I'm up at our library today
Ari,
Why do you feel the need to conduct an anonymised survey amongst your seven members? Can't you just talk to each other?
Also, might I suggest that if you feel uncomfortable changing by the side of the road then you are (at the very least) going to be severely limited in your choice of caves to visit.
Tell me, if there was a purpose built changing room (with single cubicle showers of course) up by the Lamb and Fox would you be more inclined to visit Ogof Draenen? Is this the answer to the ever decreasing number of visitors to the cave? PDCMG please take note!
Why do you feel the need to conduct an anonymised survey amongst your seven members? Can't you just talk to each other?
Also, might I suggest that if you feel uncomfortable changing by the side of the road then you are (at the very least) going to be severely limited in your choice of caves to visit.
Tell me, if there was a purpose built changing room (with single cubicle showers of course) up by the Lamb and Fox would you be more inclined to visit Ogof Draenen? Is this the answer to the ever decreasing number of visitors to the cave? PDCMG please take note!
royfellows
Well-known member
For some time now I have been worried about the political bias in the British Nazi Party, in the end I gave up on it and went caving.
Second thoughts, taking the thread seriously, there is no such thing as equality. Its an illusion.
Second thoughts, taking the thread seriously, there is no such thing as equality. Its an illusion.
2xw
Active member
It seems we've stirred quite the hornets nest, it's almost as if all you old people are offended by the notion that your terrible attitudes might be damaging to your sport.
Look at the BCAs recent findings on the demographics of their membership.
I suppose at least your attitudes will die with you but I hope caving doesn't either.
Look at the BCAs recent findings on the demographics of their membership.
I suppose at least your attitudes will die with you but I hope caving doesn't either.
2xw
Active member
BradW said:I'm not a youngster. I'm with you provided you stop assuming all "oldies" have bad attitude
It's angry hyperbole - and an attempt to wind up the CBC when they post their desperate attempts to be relevant. The vast majority of most clubs members I've ever met have been very welcoming. Perhaps I shouldn't stoop to such levels!
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
2xw said:
You don't think that comes over as a bit ...well....ageist, do you?
alastairgott
Well-known member
We've changed our opinion on Anarchists, they're not allowed.
Oh sorry, that's meant to Arachnids, No Spidermen allowed!
Oh sorry, that's meant to Arachnids, No Spidermen allowed!
Simon Wilson
New member
2xw said:BradW said:I'm not a youngster. I'm with you provided you stop assuming all "oldies" have bad attitude
It's angry hyperbole - and an attempt to wind up the CBC when they post their desperate attempts to be relevant. The vast majority of most clubs members I've ever met have been very welcoming. Perhaps I shouldn't stoop to such levels!
Yes. Ignore them - 'Don't feed the trolls.'
Look at the age of the neofascists you see in the news before generalising about age and "attitude".
People around their sixties had their formative years in the sixties - think John Lennon.
royfellows
Well-known member
droid said:
Now common sense has found its way into the argument, didn't expect that.
Mike Hopley
New member
A female friend of mine has been severely distressed by the "jokey" behaviour of male cavers -- one in particular -- on caving weekends. It caused her a great deal of upset and anxiety over the course of months (even years). Generally the issue was very explicit sexual jokes directed at her personally, but there were some (relatively mild) physical elements too.
It seems to me that this behaviour often comes from men who don't relate well to women.
Of course, lewd jokes can be fine if everyone in the group is comfortable with them. But you need to be careful, especially when you have (say) one younger woman in a group of older men. Failing to object, and even joining in with the banter, does not necessarily mean they are happy with it: often they're just going along with social pressure.
My view is that these kinds of jokes -- especially when they're directed at an individual -- are not appropriate unless you know the person very well. Otherwise it can easily end up as sexual harassment. Sadly, the people doing the harassing rarely understand why it would upset someone. "Surely it's just harmless banter?" Well, if you are on the receiving end, maybe it's not so harmless.
I have seen the damage it can cause. It's not funny.
That is a relevant point.
Inclusiveness is about treating all sorts of people with respect and consideration. This includes people who have worries/fears that you might think are silly, such as feeling embarrassed about nudity, or even having their photo taken.
Try to put yourself in their shoes. These things are real for them, so be considerate. Try to find ways of accommodating them. It might not always be practical; but you can always treat them with respect instead of ridicule. Again, this is something I've had direct experience of. Most people are good at doing this, but some just don't get it.
And no, I'm not saying you can't/shouldn't poke fun at people. What a miserable world that would be. Just have a care for how they react.
It seems to me that this behaviour often comes from men who don't relate well to women.
Of course, lewd jokes can be fine if everyone in the group is comfortable with them. But you need to be careful, especially when you have (say) one younger woman in a group of older men. Failing to object, and even joining in with the banter, does not necessarily mean they are happy with it: often they're just going along with social pressure.
My view is that these kinds of jokes -- especially when they're directed at an individual -- are not appropriate unless you know the person very well. Otherwise it can easily end up as sexual harassment. Sadly, the people doing the harassing rarely understand why it would upset someone. "Surely it's just harmless banter?" Well, if you are on the receiving end, maybe it's not so harmless.
I have seen the damage it can cause. It's not funny.
That is a relevant point.
Inclusiveness is about treating all sorts of people with respect and consideration. This includes people who have worries/fears that you might think are silly, such as feeling embarrassed about nudity, or even having their photo taken.
Try to put yourself in their shoes. These things are real for them, so be considerate. Try to find ways of accommodating them. It might not always be practical; but you can always treat them with respect instead of ridicule. Again, this is something I've had direct experience of. Most people are good at doing this, but some just don't get it.
And no, I'm not saying you can't/shouldn't poke fun at people. What a miserable world that would be. Just have a care for how they react.
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