A few Cowstails related questions

underground

underground

Active member
I've just been tying a new pair of cowstails and trying to weigh up whether to include a short mid-loop for getting nice and tight into the anchors, something I was taught on my IRATA level 1.

I cam across a bit of stuff on the web about using a Croll in a similar fashion for shortening a cows tail, but I haven't come across this before, so;

Any thoughts either way on the third loop would be appreciated, as would input from anyone experienced in using a Croll in this way.

Lastly, what do folk use as their rule of thumb for length? I'm a bit stuck for somewhere to hang at present and wouldn't mind getting the length about right before getting on the sharp end.

Thanks folks....
 
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damian

Active member
The Rope Access system is a good one, but has a major drawback in that you end up with two sets of rope attachments to the central maillon. I find these take up too much space and make other manoeuvres more awkward. I think most people tend to find that an additional long cowstail is more use underground for moving along pre-rigged traverse lines. It is, after all, not very often when you actually have to use etriers and a very short cowstail during normal sport caving.

As for lengths, go for the short one (including krab) to be about the length of your forearm and the longer on to be about double this length. That should be about right. Bear in mind that the knots inevitably tighten when you first properly use them, so they need to be made shorter than you actually want them.

Finally, as for the Croll, it works if you want it to. However, I can't think of anywhere I would use it apart from free-hanging traverses ... and I can't think of any proper ones of more than a couple of bolts in length in a British cave .. but I stand to be corrected!
 
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wormster

Guest
Hmm,

My cowstails are set up like this:

Long one is shorter than the reach of my arm by about 6-8 inches, (same for my and jammer), your arm should not make a right angle when extended.

Short one is under a foot, I think its about 8-10 inches long, basically as short as humanly possible.

They're all tied out of one bit of DYNAMIC rope, using fig 8 knots.

As for your idea of using a 3'rd loop its not something I've ever seen done.
 
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dunc

New member
Lastly, what do folk use as their rule of thumb for length? I'm a bit stuck for somewhere to hang at present and wouldn't mind getting the length about right before getting on the sharp end.
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Long - a limp arms length including krab so I can reach the krab when cowstail is slightly tight. Short - don't have a rule of thumb for this one, I just aim to keep it quite short - perhaps no more than a hands length between knots.

As for extra bits n bobs - never seen or used any other systems and I can't see the value of extra clutter - I prefer to keep it simple and as clutter free as I can.
 
JB

JB

Member
underground said:
Any thoughts either way on the third loop would be appreciated
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I'm not into this. Cleanliness is next to godliness on the central maillon  :ang: and that extra knot might mean that the rope doesn't feed through your Croll as well in ascent. I never need to be that close to the anchors unless aid climbing (in which case you can always attach a short quickdraw sling to your central maillon).

underground said:
Lastly, what do folk use as their rule of thumb for length?
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It's easy mate! The best guitarists play low slung and you ought to be rockin' the 'metre plus' long cowstail.

underground said:
...as would input from anyone experienced in using a Croll in this way.
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I've posted about this before. I do this occasionally on aid traverses with very poor/no footholds and it works for me but I'm careful not to shockload the cowstail. There are other ways involving clipping your cowstail back onto your central maillon and attaching another krab to the loop. I like to use my Croll but other people prefer the other method.

Jules.

 
beardedboy

beardedboy

Member
My personal 'rule of thumb' for my short cowstail is that i should just be able to unclip it from a y-hang when my stop or rack is weighted on the rope below.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,243.0.html
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http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,2938.0.html
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,3386.0.html
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,3571.0.html

Geek%20bully.JPG
 
caving_fox

caving_fox

Active member
Long cows tail:

When testing your Stop you could find yourself hanging weighted on the length of this. Hence you ought to be able to reach the krab when everything is tight.

Short:
You need to put your weight onto the Stop so the short cows tail must be longer by at least the length of a knot than the distance from the D ring to the stop.

Ie about arms length and about a foot. You really need to hang somewhere to set them up properly. Another option would be as long as your old ones!

Just my thoughts.

I don't do a lot of rigging but some more exposed pitches feel more comfortable with a third very short tail to keep you snug against the rock. If yo find it doesn't get in the way I've seen it done, but I don't need to.
 
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Dave H

Guest
As above:
Arms length and half an arms length made from one rope for normal use.
Extra very short one for known free hanging rebelays (a la Event Horizon in Titan) because I too am a wimp and like to be very close to the hangers at this point
 
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wormster

Guest
caving_fox said:
I don't do a lot of rigging but some more exposed pitches feel more comfortable with a third very short tail to keep you snug against the rock.
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Why not use a fifi hook?
 
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Dave H

Guest
wormster said:
caving_fox said:
I don't do a lot of rigging but some more exposed pitches feel more comfortable with a third very short tail to keep you snug against the rock.
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Why not use a fifi hook?
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Nancy name - is this a climbing toy?    ;)  :spank:
 
ian.p

ian.p

Active member
or alternativly why not just use 1 or 2 crabs cliped together atached directly to the central mailon then you dont have to constently have a third cowstail geting in the way as you can just use a few spare crabs as and when needed. it wouldnt be at all dynamic but i cant see as that matters if your that close in to the bolt.
 
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damian

Active member
caving_fox said:
Long cows tail:

When testing your Stop you could find yourself hanging weighted on the length of this. Hence you ought to be able to reach the krab when everything is tight.
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You can, of course, use your upper jammer to prusik up your long cowstail if it's too long to reach the krab. This works well and is a good solution if you happen to want a very long, long cowstail. However, I find that having one longer than I can reach is a nightmare when rigging awkward traverses. Much better to have one the right length and to occasionally get annoyed by it!
 
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wormster

Guest
Dave H said:
wormster said:
caving_fox said:
I don't do a lot of rigging but some more exposed pitches feel more comfortable with a third very short tail to keep you snug against the rock.
Click to expand...

Why not use a fifi hook?
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Nancy name - is this a climbing toy?    ;)  :spank:
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Nah that's how its described in ACT basically a sky hook the closest match I can find is on the petzl site:
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=41
 
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potholer

New member
I though a skyhook was a sharp hook for hooking onto small rock projections (used to maintain position when placing a bolt, etc) and a fifi hook was a rounded hook for use in aid climbing, which you could use to hang etriers on bolts, but which allowed you to pull them up without reaching down once you'd climbed above them.
 
bat

bat

Member
A skyhook is what you send the apprentice back to the yard for when you cannot reach something . best to get him/her to pick up a tin of elbow grease and a couple of spirit level bubbles at the same time,to save a wasted journey. :)
 
SamT

SamT

Moderator
In the interests of accuracy

Skyhook = piece of climbing equipment that is a bent hook attached to some tape. Used mainly in aid climbing to hook over flakes or on flat ledges. Is starting to be used as marginal protection on free climbs (when there is basically nothing else).

d_6553.jpg


Fifi hook - more like a cup hook - used in aid climbing to attach you etriers to a piece of gear, the little hole in the top is usually treaded with a bit of retreival cord - that allows the climber to retrieve the etrier from below.

166081_300.jpg


sheesh - can you guys not type www.google.com  ::)

(there are of course hundreds of other types of "sky hook" - but being a topic about aid climing cows tails - these definitions are the ones we are after I think  :sneaky:)

back on topic

UG - Im fairly confident that you are not likely to be launching into some huge aid climbing project at the moment - so you can bag off the third loop. (Which - can - as suggested) be improvised in many ways needs be.

(y)
 
underground

underground

Active member
SamT said:
back on topic

UG - Im fairly confident that you are not likely to be launching into some huge aid climbing project at the moment - so you can bag off the third loop. (Which - can - as suggested) be improvised in many ways needs be.

(y)
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Only fairly confident Sam?  :-\

I think I'll stick with 2, a 900mm ish one and a hand's width one plus knots (gonna end up a tad longer once tight)...

Thanks for all the replies folks, it's been a couple of years since I got on a rope as you can possibly tell  :thumbsdown:
 
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wormster

Guest
underground said:
Thanks for all the replies folks, it's been a couple of years since I got on a rope as you can possibly tell  :thumbsdown:
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No worries, its provided useful information, a bit of light hearted banter and in the end a result that you feel happy with. (y)
 
underground

underground

Active member
wormster said:
underground said:
Thanks for all the replies folks, it's been a couple of years since I got on a rope as you can possibly tell  :thumbsdown:
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No worries, its provided useful information, a bit of light hearted banter and in the end a result that you feel happy with. (y)
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A perfect post then!  8)
 
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