fire brigade & cave rescue

alasdair neill

New member
I'm sure all cavers are fully supportive of the fire service's role in supporting cave rescue, and understand that nationally their role in relation to cro's and other voluntary rescue services is pretty well defined. Is it a good thing for caving for members of a cro to be involved in specific underground training for a fire brigade line rescue team in mine/cave rescue when a cro already exists in the area?
 

SamT

Moderator
Not sure I quite understand the question..

Are you saying

Is it a good thing for CRO members to attend Fire Brigade Underground training sessions.
 

JB

Member
ronaldjprice said:
Maybe I am stupid but I dont get it either.
Ron

Reading between the lines I think Alasdair might be hinting that local CRO might suffer if the fire brigade get too handy underground making the police more likely to call the fire brigade rather than the local CRO. I don't know if that's on the cards or not. Certainly not heard anything like that in Derbyshire.

Jules.
 

Christian_Chourot

New member
In places where a CRO exists,

Is it a good thing for caving

for members of a cro to be involved in

specific mine/cave rescue training for a fire brigade line rescue team


That's my interpretation of it anyway. Confusing to answer without any context. Good for caving, or good for cave rescue services?
 

Cave_Troll

Active member
As i read it the questions is, should X CRO be teaching the local FireBrigade Line/rope rescue unit in underground techniques.

the answer should be "whatever is best for the casualty"
however, the Rope Rescue units i've worked with consist of a crew of say 5. 5 people can't do most rescues, so may not help if they get called out and don't call out CRO until they've got on scene discovered they can't cope and then call for help.

I've been in the situation where the 999 call for a fallen climber got routed to the local FB RRU. they turned out and sent three guys on the hill. and then radioed back to base for Mountain rescue asistance.
 

Brains

Well-known member
As said, whatever is best for the casualty, BUT the FB arent the happiest teddies in u/g or confined rescue situations (and mines rescue really dont like natural cave either), By all means train practice and learn, but dont let any victims suffer because somebody wants to reinvent the wheel
 

Slug

Member
On balance I'd have to say Yes. Anything that helps is a good thing.
Working with a Fire Brigade on such an exercise can only promote a better understanding of each others operations and techniques. There will be procedures common to both parties, and most likely unique to both as well, surely both can learn from each other.
If, when the unthinkable does happen, the two organisations are familiar with each other, and their relative M.O.'s, the rescue will probably be easier to conduct.
This type of mutual cooperation benefits both, sometimes a Fire crew may be needed in a cave/mine rescue, it may also be that in certain circumstances they ask for the assistance of a c.r.o.. It would help if they "Know" each other.  
 

Cave_Troll

Active member
in the MR team i'm also a member of, we had a talk from local FB. He was saying that once FB turn up on site , they have a responsibity for Health and Safety of everyone there, and anyone going in to the cas site (or inner cordon) would have to go through their control point.
now I can think of many situations where the FB might have been called out first, and they would be totally out of their depth, eg crashed Paraglider halfway down MamTor face, or most cave rescue.
in practice i have done this a couple of times, as stated before FB got called out by accident, and it wasn't a problem.

however if you take it to the letter, they may beleive that they are in control, even if they have no knowledge of caving or of that particular system.
In reality i think they would readily concede.
they do have resources that may be able to help (eg high volume pumps), and we have called them in to back us up with concrete chainsaws for a stuck weaseller.
 

Brains

Well-known member
I remeber a few years back at Mandale founder shaft, the FB had helped cut out the concrete cap, but were nervously eyeing the 300' shaft until it became clear DCRO were descending, not them, at which point there tripod was up in a flash and we were away. It MUST be the best people for the job in hand, regardless of what the p/w says...
 
P

Prince of Darkness

Guest
It depends on whether the cave is on fire or not I guess
 

menacer

Active member
alasdair neill said:
Is it a good thing for caving for members of a cro to be involved in specific underground training for a fire brigade line rescue team in mine/cave rescue when a cro already exists in the area?

Hi Ali, welcome to the forum,

http://www.fireservicecollege.ac.uk/NR/rdonlyres/BEEE4AA4-DF31-4A8B-902A-7DFC9242AF9A/0/20080114_MAGIC_DSv1_DNewman_KThompson_pdf.pdf

Looking at the Objectives part of this pdf (just a random bit of info on FS practice in Major incidents or emergencies), my understanding from your message, is the two partners agencies CRO and FS are looking at establishing better relationships and understanding of operational practices.

Given that your area, Devon, has  a lot of mines and there have been incidents of bad air in Mines, I wouldnt see it as a disadvantage for the area CRO to work closely with the FS as they have established practices of safe working in ltd O2 environments.BA stuff for one.

Carm.

ps check "your messages"  inbox at top of page, ive pm'd you





 
The Fire and Rescue Organization that I work for has Cave systems in its area, and our policy is to leave cave rescue to the CRO, as you are the expperts in this area, however we will always give a hand if the CRO asked us to, weather this is operationally or in a support roll.
We do have a Technical Rescue Unit, which deals with collapsed structures, Rope Rescue etc but this is for dealing with Industrial risks, so theres no problem :beer: of us treading on each others toes.
 

graham

New member
At SUICRO in October the Fire & Rescue boys showed off some superb toys that no CRO could afford but that they could bring along if asked.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
An assurance was given at the time of the change to the Fire Service Acts that brought in the role of rescue that fire services would not duplicate rescue activities already competently dealt with by other bodies.  Trouble is I can't immediately find a reference for it, but if it is required; I will dig harder.

With respect to Fire Service taking over Health and Safety at a scene; yes they can but as I understand the set up, they can also be "trumped" by the police if the situation exists where the police are leading in place of the fire service, and a cave rescue organisation will be the police's representative on scene.  But as Cave Troll says, I would also expect sense to prevail at an actual scene. 

If this is a serious question, then clarification can be sought from the UK Search and Rescue Operators Group which is a governmental body set up to resolve this type of concern (see http://www.dft.gov.uk/transportforyou/uksar/ ).  Email me on equipment at british-caving dot org dot uk and I can give you guidance on how to do this.

As for sharing training, there already exists shared training in Derbyshire between paramedics & DCRO. 

HTH

Bob
 

paul

Moderator
The answer probably depends on the particular region of the country. Cave Rescue Organisations are called out by Police forces with each force having an allocated cro.
 
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