Going to buy some srt kit soon and was wondering
what would be the best descender to buy, Petzl stop or a Rack?

That depends on what you are going to be doing.

I would say that, for every day use, a Stop would be best.
They are more simple to use and harder to get wrong but if you are just going to descend long pitches that someone else has rigged get a Rack, you will have a smoother ride and its kinder to the rope.

a stop. SRT manouvers are slightly easier and its a bit more vesatile than a rack. Considered by most as de riger. ( you see far more stops in use than you do racks when out and about).

im sure pages of debate will ensue with stalwarts staunchly defending their favourites.

but if you learn with a stop - then you can try with a rack later in your career if you feel the urge.

I have both but rarely use my rack, only if I know Im going to be doing predomanantly free hanging big pitches. For instance repeated digging trips down the same mine shaft.

I think there has been previous discussions on the forum - try using the searh tool.

wow - here goes a big debate

I use a rack but don't really have much of a reason - i just like to see the rope running through it and therefore feel more comfortable about the friction - it's all in my head - i know this is a stupid reason to prefer one.

I also have no problems with it

I own both. For personal trips I prefer a rack - Stops get a bit tedious on bigger pitches, and I find a rack generally less hastle to use. However a Stop is a lot more versatile for self-rescues, lifelining etc., so if I'm leading/assisting on a trip for beginners etc., I usually take a Stop. Definitely try both before you buy.

Wallop, are you aware that there is a third option, the Petzl bobbin, which is the most commonly used and safest descender in Europe? Are you also aware that accidents with the Petzl Stop are now quite probably the biggest single cause of injury in British caving. And yes, there has been considerable discussion on this subject before, and if this thread triggers it off again it's no bad thing. Every year people get hurt who don't need need to get hurt and the only way we can change that is to keep this subject high profile. I find it slightly depressing that nobody offering advice to you so far has felt it necessary to stress the inherent dangers of the Stop are suggest consideration of the bobbin as a third and very sensible option.

Wallop:

I have a Petzl Bobbin (simple)
Lots of Petzl Stops
A Petzl rack and
a DSD (like a Stop but it actually does stop if you clutch it!)

So if you want to try stuff out before making a purchase gimme a PM/call.....
but as a ballpark it often goes like this... big pitches = rack, other stuff = stop/bobbin, single short pitches = Italian/Munter hitch or fig 8

What advantage is there of a bobbin over a rack? (genuine question, never used one...).

If you worry about having the autolock on a Stop, pop a krab, or even a maillon, in the hole to disable it. Then it's still there in case you need the autolock (for hauling, lining, anything but descending). A Stop is a far more versatile bit of kit. The "inherent" safety problem Andy mentions is the same as the "inherent" safety problem that causes most car crashes - user error. So, if you buy one, learn to use it. I'm sure there's lots of people who could show you how

Damn - double post!

Andy Sparrow said:

Wallop, are you aware that there is a third option, the Petzl bobbin, which is the most commonly used and safest descender in Europe? Are you also aware that accidents with the Petzl Stop are now quite probably the biggest single cause of injury in British caving. And yes, there has been considerable discussion on this subject before, and if this thread triggers it off again it's no bad thing. Every year people get hurt who don't need need to get hurt and the only way we can change that is to keep this subject high profile. I find it slightly depressing that nobody offering advice to you so far has felt it necessary to stress the inherent dangers of the Stop are suggest consideration of the bobbin as a third and very sensible option.

Click to expand...

Well, there would be a lot less injuries if you didn't get so annopyed with Petzl Stops and didn't throw them at people.

I have a petzl stop and a rack and I like them both.
I bought the stop after having excellent training by Andy Sparrow and I feel confident using it although sometimes I find it hard to squeeze the handle in and it can be a bit jerky (might just need wearing in).
I bought the rack on ebay so I could try it and see what I thought. I tried it and liked it but I think I would only use it on pitches with no rebelays as its a bit faffy to thread but smooth to descend on.

Andy Sparrow said:

I find it slightly depressing that nobody offering advice to you so far has felt it necessary to stress the inherent dangers of the Stop

Click to expand...

this is because the stop has no inherant dangers that are any different from any other descending device - the only danger comes from the users and their understanding of what they are using.

Your claims of "Safest this" and "most dangerous that" are based on statistics, and as we know, statistics can be misleading.

Ive read recently that 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot so Im not going to start throwing figures about but I will say that many more poeple use stops than bobbins, and that prehaps bobbins aren't as useful as a stop in the broad spectrum of SRT uses.

I knew this tread would end up like this

the original question was quite simple - Stop or Rack as first bit of srt kit.
to which most people, as you'd expect - said stop.

It is the de-riger piece of kit for SRT and is perfectly safe when used correctly.

I agree with all using that a Simple bobbin is the best way to train a person to use a stop correctly so I guess we could have suggested that Wallop goes out and pays someone lots of money to show him (or her???) how to work one properly.

So - the long the short and the tall is that IMHO - a Stop would be better over a rack as a first piece of SRT kit to purchase with the proviso that wallop has the wherewithall to use it correctly.

Making sweeping dismissive statements about statistics denies a basic truth which UK cavers need to be aware of....

more Stop users = more accidents = more seriously injured, crippled or dead cavers.


Do you think I would bang on about this if I wasn't genuinely and absolutely convinced it was true?

The answeris...there is no answer. I agree with the earlier comment that both are avantageous in certain circumstances. I don't like STOP's myself, I find them a bit jerky and get hot on long pitches, but they do stop you dying if you get hit on the head and knocked out on a pitch.

Racks are smoooth, but wear out on dry, dusty or muddy ropes.

You can at least ab a double rope with a rack, a major plus on through trips.

I like bobbins, as they are quite smooth, quick, but need faffing with a braking crab in some circmstances. I don't like any kit that you have to add bits to to make it work...!

.....I think I'm going to recommend a rack and some PROPER TRAINING to use it...

Andy Sparrow said:

Making sweeping dismissive statements about statistics denies a basic truth which UK cavers need to be aware of....

more Stop users = more accidents = more seriously injured, crippled or dead cavers.


Do you think I would bang on about this if I wasn't genuinely and absolutely convinced it was true?

Click to expand...

I find it strange that no one here particularly Andy has said the obvious?

"Why is the OP asking here?"

Ask the people you're learning SRT from to let you have a go with both and anything else they've got too. See what you get on with. Don't go buying any kit till you know how to use it.

Novices should have someone below to stop their descent if they get it wrong.

is there any evidence to say that of all the injured/crippled/dead cavers knocking about - that had they been using bobbins - they'd be healthy/fully able/alive cavers instead.

or are we just seeing darwins gene pool theory at work.

emgee said:

Andy Sparrow said:

Making sweeping dismissive statements about statistics denies a basic truth which UK cavers need to be aware of....

more Stop users = more accidents = more seriously injured, crippled or dead cavers.


Do you think I would bang on about this if I wasn't genuinely and absolutely convinced it was true?

Click to expand...

I find it strange that no one here particularly Andy has said the obvious?

"Why is the OP asking here?"

Ask the people you're learning SRT from to let you have a go with both and anything else they've got too. See what you get on with. Don't go buying any kit till you know how to use it.

Novices should have someone below to stop their descent if they get it wrong.

Click to expand...

My views on this subject developed after being employed on two occasions to prepare comprehensive reports on Stop descender accidents which had led to litigation claims. I spent many tens of hours examing the circumstances of the accidents and comparing the experiences of UK, European and American cavers - each group being biased towards one particular type of descender. The results clearly indicate to me that there is a considerably higher ocurrence of accidents associated with the Stop descender. There was another conclusion that I came to which is that Stops require a very high standard of training to be used safely. Both the accidents I investigated happened despite the best attempts of responsible and experienced cavers to provide adequate training. The traditional system of learning off your mates is just not good enough for this bit of kit. The Stop would be fine if we had really good and consistent standards of training in UK caving but we don't - and that's why we would be well advised to adopt something simpler.

you seem to be saying that if wallop uses a stop - he/she is almost bound to have a serious accident because of it.

And are you suggesting that the stop should be erradicated from UK caving practice :?

For what it's worth, I started with a Stop back in the early 80's and found them to be jerky and also a pain to hold the handle in on long pitches (I am a bit hefty at 6 foot 4 and 15 stone...). I tried a Bobbin, also known as Petzl Simple. Much better as they are as smooth as a rack and also not as bulky as a Stop with the krab in place to defeat its auto-lock - which isn't 100% successful unless the diameter of the krab just fits the hole it is inserted into.

I have also used racks but they are fiddly, swing about a lot when not in use and I agree with Dave Elliot - only really useful on very long pitches, 100m+, where the variable friction is a boon. Racks are popular in the US, where they were developed. US cavers tend to longer individual pitches as many do not use rebelays to split them up but depend on "indestructible rope technique" using abrasion resistant ropes and padding where needed. In Europe pitches are usually split into sections with rebelays so individual sections are never very long. Also most users only apply a soft-lock - in order to lock a rack off properly takes a lot of rope.

In my opinion, based on observation of others learning with Stops,who have bever used any type of descender before, the use of the handle to go and stop is drummed into them so much instead of treating it as a "dead-man's handle" to be held in all the time and use the tension on the rope below to control descent. This means they concentrate on using the handle instead of tension on the rope for control.

Stops are great for preventing a plummet in case of acidentally letting go - say if knocked unconcious. But treating them as a fail-safe in case of trouble - i.e. in case you are descending too quickly you "just let go" I think is a fallacy. If you suddenly loose control and need to slow down quickly, as a reflex action, you wil grabe anything, including the handle, and continue to plummet. If you are controlling descent by tension on the rope as with most other descenders this natural reaction to grab will assist in slowing you down instead of making matters worse.

I think it is better for a novice to begin with a descender which depends on tension in the rope for control and once they have sufficient experience using this descender they can then use a Stop (or any other Auto-lock descender) if they wish.

Just my 0.02p's worth. At the end of the day, everybody has their own opinion.

One thing I think we should all agree on is that proper training in the use any device is essential.

Wallop should be fine since he has access to some averagely capable people who can train him in the use of a stop, should he wish to purchase one. BTW, when do you want to do your SRT training? PM me.