lifelining the modern way

whitelackington

whitelackington

New member
Do lifeliners and the lifelined now both have to wear harnesses.
I recently bought a belt and the emporium entrepreneur told me it was a battery belt, not to be used as a lifeline belt, he claimed no such thing as a belt for lifelining anymore :(
 
Brains

Brains

Well-known member
This is true I am afraid to say - if there is the possibility of being suspended then a harness should be used. If the belayer is outside the  belay system and in a place of safety, then theoretically they might not need a harness...
 
D

damian

Active member
I think you'll find the reason the retailer correctly told you that the battery belt was not a "belay" belt was that it has not passed any standards (which cost money). As such, they can no longer be labelled as "belay belt".

Personally I use a belay belt on short (<10m) pitches, although I am careful to ensure the buckle is doubled back, the belt is tight enough to not ride up my chest and that the lifeline technique in use can lower me quickly and efficiently (e.g. Italian Hitch, Belay Plate, Petzl Stop but NOT Pulley-Jammer or Mini-Traxion). If you take these precautions, and are aware of the problems, then I see no problem in using a "belay" belt (assuming it is made of proper webbing that is!
 
whitelackington

whitelackington

New member
You are missing the point, the caving emporium entreprnuer went to some lenght  to impress on me and the rest of his public, that there is NO belt sold that can now be used as a belay belt. :confused:

When I asked him what are we now,
supposed to do for lifelining

he said he did not know.
 
A

Andy Sparrow

Active member
damian said:
I think you'll find the reason the retailer correctly told you that the battery belt was not a "belay" belt was that it has not passed any standards (which cost money). As such, they can no longer be labelled as "belay belt".

Personally I use a belay belt on short (<10m) pitches, although I am careful to ensure the buckle is doubled back, the belt is tight enough to not ride up my chest and that the lifeline technique in use can lower me quickly and efficiently (e.g. Italian Hitch, Belay Plate, Petzl Stop but NOT Pulley-Jammer or Mini-Traxion). If you take these precautions, and are aware of the problems, then I see no problem in using a "belay" belt (assuming it is made of proper webbing that is!
Click to expand...

I would agree with this. 
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
whitelackington said:
You are missing the point, the caving emporium entreprnuer went to some lenght  to impress on me and the rest of his public, that there is NO belt sold that can now be used as a belay belt. :confused:

When I asked him what are we now,
supposed to do for lifelining

he said he did not know.
Click to expand...

So if he doesn't know, what qualifies him to make the first of his statements?
 
francis

francis

New member
I don't understand belay belts. The ribcage is stronger than the stomache where the belt sits, so wouldn't be safer to have it around the chest?

You could also tie a double bowline and use the loops as legloops and use the tail of the rope around the chest to keep you upright, saving bringing anything at all.

Francis
 
A

Andy Sparrow

Active member
whitelackington said:
You are missing the point, the caving emporium entreprnuer went to some lenght  to impress on me and the rest of his public, that there is NO belt sold that can now be used as a belay belt. :confused:

When I asked him what are we now,
supposed to do for lifelining

he said he did not know.
Click to expand...

CE marking makes no provision for 'belay belts' and hence they are not sold as such any longer.  However if they are still manufactured to the same standard (like the Troll) I see no reason not to use them.  What's the alternative?  Wear a harness on every trip with a short ladder pitch?  Go back to tying bowlines round your waist?  Common sense says two inch industrially sewn webbing with an adequate and correctly threaded buckle is not going to fail under normal (or even abnormal) loading.  Warmbac have just started producing a belt which meets these standards though, of course, it will not be sold as a 'belay belt'. 
 
paul

paul

Moderator
Andy Sparrow said:
whitelackington said:
You are missing the point, the caving emporium entreprnuer went to some lenght  to impress on me and the rest of his public, that there is NO belt sold that can now be used as a belay belt. :confused:

When I asked him what are we now,
supposed to do for lifelining

he said he did not know.
Click to expand...

CE marking makes no provision for 'belay belts' and hence they are not sold as such any longer.  However if they are still manufactured to the same standard (like the Troll) I see no reason not to use them.  What's the alternative?  Wear a harness on every trip with a short ladder pitch?  Go back to tying bowlines round your waist?  Common sense says two inch industrially sewn webbing with an adequate and correctly threaded buckle is not going to fail under normal (or even abnormal) loading.  Warmbac have just started producing a belt which meets these standards though, of course, it will not be sold as a 'belay belt'. 
Click to expand...

Exactly. They are now sold as "very strong battery belts" (wink-wink)!
 
Cave_Troll

Cave_Troll

Active member
Andy Sparrow said:
CE marking makes no provision for 'belay belts' and hence they are not sold as such any longer.  However if they are still manufactured to the same standard (like the Troll) I see no reason not to use them.  Common sense says two inch industrially sewn webbing with an adequate and correctly threaded buckle is not going to fail under normal (or even abnormal) loading. 
Click to expand...
sorry but its not a worry that the belt is going to break, its more to do with taking a fall on a belt tied around your waist.
Falling anything more than a little slump onto a tight rope is going to have huge potential to damage internal organs. (around ribs are not not that much better as a fall can break ribs and constrict breathing)
I'm always amazed by the caving worlds love of belay belts when everyone else realised how dangerous they are years ago.
And yes i would use a harness even for Giants.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
paul said:
They are now sold as "very strong battery belts" (wink-wink)!
Click to expand...
For your 20 stone battery sir! ;) (that will be an oldham then...) Oh how the lawyers are rubbing hands in glee at what they have reduced us too. No such thing as common sense in law. For legal reasons! We need a new 'name' for the belt, like 'assisted hand line belt' or 'assisted support belt' words that have nothing to do with vertical rope work as such but gives the impression of a pre-loaded support belt! - THATS IT "Pre-loaded Support belt"....
 
A

Andy Sparrow

Active member
Cave_Troll said:
Andy Sparrow said:
CE marking makes no provision for 'belay belts' and hence they are not sold as such any longer.  However if they are still manufactured to the same standard (like the Troll) I see no reason not to use them.  Common sense says two inch industrially sewn webbing with an adequate and correctly threaded buckle is not going to fail under normal (or even abnormal) loading. 
Click to expand...
sorry but its not a worry that the belt is going to break, its more to do with taking a fall on a belt tied around your waist.
Falling anything more than a little slump onto a tight rope is going to have huge potential to damage internal organs. (around ribs are not not that much better as a fall can break ribs and constrict breathing)
I'm always amazed by the caving worlds love of belay belts when everyone else realised how dangerous they are years ago.
And yes i would use a harness even for Giants.
Click to expand...

If using belts was as dangerous as you suggest there would be accidents and injuries associated with there use.  I know of none.  Cavers 'love' belts because they are so damn useful, not because, as you seem to suggest, they are collectively stupid.  It's your choice to use a harness, and there are many benefits in using one, but the majority of cavers confronted with a short ladder pitch, and denied the use of a belt, will go back to bowlines around the middle.  This would hardly be a step forward.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
I agree with Andy, people will use the easy option and you have to provide them with the best easy option which is a belt rather then a peace of rope or worse, nothing at all. After that you can work on converting everyone to a harness for everything if you wish but it will take a long time.

The problem whitelackington is having is this need to go wink wink I cant say thing because someone 'might' have an accident and I might get sued. So were back to the problem of the compensation culture and insurance and lawyers etc etc making us not want to do anything that might put us at risk without off loading the 'blame' to someone else, the manufactures who say its PPE or not PPE. The answer is to get a PPE rated belt made or simply ignore this rubbish. Problem is we dont want manufactures now making weak belt because they think they dont need to make them strong anymore.....
 
D

damian

Active member
damian said:
I think you'll find the reason the retailer correctly told you that the battery belt was not a "belay" belt was that it has not passed any standards (which cost money). As such, they can no longer be labelled as "belay belt".

Personally I use a belay belt on short (<10m) pitches, although I am careful to ensure the buckle is doubled back, the belt is tight enough to not ride up my chest and that the lifeline technique in use can lower me quickly and efficiently (e.g. Italian Hitch, Belay Plate, Petzl Stop but NOT Pulley-Jammer or Mini-Traxion). If you take these precautions, and are aware of the problems, then I see no problem in using a "belay" belt (assuming it is made of proper webbing that is!
Click to expand...

I should add to this that anywhere involving a pitch where my party is on belts, I ALWAYS ensure I carry a sling, central maillon and krab to improvise a harness should it be necessary to haul them. The other alternative (mentioned by francis) is making one out of rope (which is really painful!)
 
Cave_Troll

Cave_Troll

Active member
well i was going to suggest that if you like belay belts so much, take a 1m fall on to one and see what happend.
on second thoughts i didn't want to be held responsible for suggesting that you do it.
You can argue that you've never had any problem while wearing one. but as has been pointed out in other threads, I'm sure the same arguement were used for not wearing seatbelts while driving. (if you want to compare driving with falling on a rope, then look at the reasons simple lap belts are generally considered a bad iea)
If your ladder snaps and it takes a while to lower you off for some reason, I really hope you're wearing a harness.

sure its a few quid more but then a decent head lamp is a few quid more than holding a maglite in your teeth.
 
D

Dep

Guest
Cave_Troll said:
...
sorry but its not a worry that the belt is going to break, its more to do with taking a fall on a belt tied around your waist.
Falling anything more than a little slump onto a tight rope is going to have huge potential to damage internal organs. (around ribs are not not that much better as a fall can break ribs and constrict breathing)
I'm always amazed by the caving worlds love of belay belts when everyone else realised how dangerous they are years ago.
And yes i would use a harness even for Giants.
Click to expand...

Yes - and that is the point at which you should be using a harness and not a belt.

Correct use of belt and lifeline does not allow this to happen - if it is possible to fall onto the belt more than a foot or so then you are doing it wrong.

If there is a potential for falling any distance and coming up hard on the rope then a harness is essential.
But only then!!!
In normal belt/line situations this should not occur.
And if it does we deem it an unforseeable accident - or negligence on someone's part!
 
Hughie

Hughie

Active member
Dep beat me to it. I was going to suggest that 1m of slack in a lifeline would indicate poor life-lining technique.
 
Cave_Troll

Cave_Troll

Active member
all it takes it the person belaying to swap hands, ie he pauses for 1 sec
at that time the climber takes 2 steps up and either slips or the ladder breaks.
BANG
 
D

Dep

Guest
Cave_Troll said:
all it takes it the person belaying to swap hands, ie he pauses for 1 sec
at that time the climber takes 2 steps up and either slips or the ladder breaks.
BANG
Click to expand...

Still incorrect use - if the lifeliner wants to pause then he should tell the climber to wait.
He should also be able to change hands without loosing the rope - it's not hard!
And the person climbing should never over-climb their line...

So this would be poor technique from both parties!
 
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