Only done a couple of short-descent SRT trips but I'm starting to dislike having to keep the handle held in on the Stop - it makes my hand ache! I've seen other people's worn Stop's creep on a rope making the handle less useful and even though I was glad of the handle when I very first started learning I'm now less keen on it. I don't want to spring for another descender unless I have to and the handle is always there if I want to use it again.

Does anybody use the locking-hole on the Stop (to turn it into a Simple) regularly? If so, does a krab in the hole get in the way of threading the rope? What sort of krab do you use?

Additional: I currently use a braking krab with the Stop

Walrus said:

Only done a couple of short-descent SRT trips but I'm starting to dislike having to keep the handle held in on the Stop - it makes my hand ache! I've seen other people's worn Stop's creep on a rope making the handle less useful and even though I was glad of the handle when I very first started learning I'm now less keen on it. I don't want to spring for another descender unless I have to and the handle is always there if I want to use it again.

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Hi Walrus,
The Stop is an advanced piece of equipment that has many uses apart from abseiling, I won't go into them here as I'm sure it has been covered ad nausium elsewhere.  :-\

If you can learn to live with the handle you'll find it a most useful bit of kit.
I do understand what you say about holding the handl in and also if you find the stop creeping on the rope, just push the handle up and it will stop.

Walrus said:

Does anybody use the locking-hole on the Stop (to turn it into a Simple) regularly? If so, does a krab in the hole get in the way of threading the rope? What sort of krab do you use?

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I have used the hole to lock the stop and it works fine, I only do this on big pitches as I find the stop function useful otherwise (when I'm rigging for instance).
The krab doesn't get in the way of threading the rope 

My wife uses a Petzl Simple for just the reasons you describe. She also finds it gives her a much smoother abseil. However, the major drawback (that stops me from also using a Simple) is what LesW says about alternative uses for the Stop.

In terms of disabling the Stop function, I do find it quite awkward but haven't experimented with different shapes of krab. I guess an oval will probably be best???

Also a Simple has a couple of advantages over a disabled stop ... the obvious lack of clutter and weight but also the bobbins are slightly further apart on a Simple which, I assume, is why they give a smoother abseil. A Simple is also much cheaper ... but not if you already have a Stop! 

I personally like the handle on the stop, but I use a disabling krab when my daughter is playing about because her hands just aren't big/strong enough to manage the handle. It works as well as a fig 8, but gives a smoother abseil without twisting the rope.

Rachel WTF is your avatar doing?

Sometimes people find Stop handles a pain because they are gripping them too far up and/or are purely gripping rather than also pushing.
Pushing on the handle with the heel of the hand uses arm muscles as opposed to gripping muscles, and pushing lower down the handle gives better leverage.

graham said:

Rachel WTF is your avatar doing?

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It reminds me of the car of a work colleague a long time ago. It was a Reliant Robin van, dirty brown in colour, which earned itself the name of the Bouncing T**d.

I don't often deactivate my stop because it makes using the braking krab a lot more awkward. When i do deactivate it i use my braking krab (faders equalized steel D ) which works fine.

Charlie

PS why does a caving forum want to spell check "krab" to "kebab"

Another possible option, have you considered going to bnq and buying a short (20mm) m12 bolt and a nut to put through the hole. If you only did it up finger tight it would be easy to remove if you wanted your stop back as a stop

I personally use a Simple combined with a Shunt. That way you get the best of both worlds and also have 2 points of contact with the rope at all times (like when ascending. When rigging you just slide the shunt up till your weight comes on it and hang off that. Obviously a little more involved than a Stop but a bit more versatile and IMHO.

Peter Burgess said:

graham said:

Rachel WTF is your avatar doing?

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It reminds me of the car of a work colleague a long time ago. It was a Reliant Robin van, dirty brown in colour, which earned itself the name of the Bouncing T**d.

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You've completely spoilt it for me now .... I thought it was a rather nice dancing guinea pig  :ras:

Rachel said:

Peter Burgess said:

graham said:

Rachel WTF is your avatar doing?

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It reminds me of the car of a work colleague a long time ago. It was a Reliant Robin van, dirty brown in colour, which earned itself the name of the Bouncing T**d.

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You've completely spoilt it for me now .... I thought it was a rather nice dancing guinea pig  :ras:

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Its a dancin hamster 

Sorry off topic.... The stop is sooo handy for rebelays and things were you need to stop, hang around for a bit, give you time to do something rather the struggling with a loose end rope. One day I shall give a rack a try, I seen loads of racks I wanna play with  :-[ oops that sounds rude..

Sorry off topic.... The stop is sooo handy for rebelays and things were you need to stop, hang around for a bit, give you time to do something rather the struggling with a loose end rope. One day I shall give a rack a try, I seen loads of racks I wanna play with  oops that sounds rude..

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You still have to lock off if you are going to let go of the controlling rope and want to remain safe.

Francis

francis said:

Sorry off topic.... The stop is sooo handy for rebelays and things were you need to stop, hang around for a bit, give you time to do something rather the struggling with a loose end rope. One day I shall give a rack a try, I seen loads of racks I wanna play with   oops that sounds rude..

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You still have to lock off if you are going to let go of the controlling rope and want to remain safe.

Francis

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Arguable if there's a rebelay loop 20 cms further down the rope. There isn't far you can slip then.

True, but in most cases I don't think it's a good idea to rely on the stop function for hanging around.

Francis

Only done a couple of short-descent SRT trips

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Does this mean it is a very new stop?
The handle action gets lighter and less twitchy after it has been run in a bit, 400-500m on muddy ropes should sort it. Then you will find it running smooth and easy, so persevere, the stop function is far to useful to permanently remove.

Charlie

damian said:

francis said:

Sorry off topic.... The stop is sooo handy for rebelays and things were you need to stop, hang around for a bit, give you time to do something rather the struggling with a loose end rope. One day I shall give a rack a try, I seen loads of racks I wanna play with   oops that sounds rude..

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You still have to lock off if you are going to let go of the controlling rope and want to remain safe.

Francis

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Arguable if there's a rebelay loop 20 cms further down the rope. There isn't far you can slip then.

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But, if you were to fall, even a short distance, while above and near to a rebelay with an appreciable length of rope above it, most of the shock load would occur on the rebelay near to you. This is because the rope above stretches and there is only a short length betwen you and the rebelay. You can get a high fall factor in this case. And if the rope were to snap, there would be nothing between you and the bottom of the pitch.

Most cavers think you are safest when near the anchor - from a shock load point of view, the longer the rope there is betwen you and the nearset anchor location, the better.

Francis is right.

francis said:

Sorry off topic.... The stop is sooo handy for rebelays and things were you need to stop, hang around for a bit, give you time to do something rather the struggling with a loose end rope. One day I shall give a rack a try, I seen loads of racks I wanna play with  oops that sounds rude..

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You still have to lock off if you are going to let go of the controlling rope and want to remain safe.

Francis

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There is a halfway point:

Take the rope tail in your right hand and turn it around the body of the stop so it sits between the inward top rope and the rope as it passes over the cam. And then take a second turn around this - pull tight.

This is what I call a 'soft-lock', good enough to stop you slipping and can be thrown on/off in well under a second.

To make it more secure put a half-hitch over the top - two half hitches if you're paranoid.

The 'standard' method involving poking a bight through the stop mounting krab is too time consuming (unless you want to be bomb-proof hands-off when rigging) and runs the risk of getting your fingers nipped.

My method also uses a lot less rope than the 'standard' lock - handy if the rebelay loop is too short.


This has been mentioned before on this thread and someone asked me if I could post a picture, still haven't done this yet but will get around to it this weekend as I will be SRTing and likely to have my camera with me.

Was it not you Francis that asked before?

What most people seem to call a soft lock is a single turn around the Stop body. which is fine for most temporary use as long as the Stop remains loaded.

Following it up with a hard lock (loop through the attachment [and the braking] crab and over the body) is pretty easy, and if done properly with rope loop nicely untwisted doesn't seem to involve fingers getting nipped (what can they get nipped *by*?).
Apart from maybe special situations, if a rebelay loop is too short to allow for a soft+hard lock when already hanging on the length of rope from above (ie when approaching the rebelay), it's probably crap rigging. At the top of a rope section, if the rope is tight, hard locking isn't really necessary for safety if keeping a long cowstail clipped in until the descender is loaded and tested, even if it's still worth doing (and teaching) as a matter of routine.

However, a huge amount depends on the rope in question, on dry stiff 11mm with a light caver and/or new Stop, the chances of a plummet are pretty low even without any locking off. On muddy/wet 8/9mm, with a worn Stop and/or heavy caver, locking off is going to be pretty mandatory, and hard locking may seem a good idea even to those who often don't bother.
For all the intermediate cases, the caver's judgement and common sense come into it