Access: gating solutions

NigR

New member
This part belongs in the DYO: BBC Link thread

A few points I didn't get around to pick up on last night:

hyweldavies said:
A landowner, or club committee for that matter, would be very ill-advised to get involved with judging whether a trip is dangerous on a given occasion.

But the following is taken from the DYO Access regulations:

"While the showcave is open, the warden for the party must present their "wardens permit" and the completed pre-access declaration to the showcave staff who will allow access unless there is a sound reason to deny it. Such reasons might include high water or there already being three parties in the cave."

Do you think this is reasonable? What, for example, would your opinion be of any cavers who refused to accept the advice given to them by the showcave staff regarding a potential rise in water levels if this situation occurred?


*** NEW THREAD STARTED HERE ***

cap 'n chris said:
NigR said:
If it was down to me there would be no gates on any caves anywhere, just as I've always said.

From this is it fair to say you're not bothered much by caves suffering wanton damage?

I am VERY bothered by caves suffering wanton damage (conservation is, believe it or not, one of my chief concerns these days) but I think there are more acceptable solutions to the problem other than gates. I am morally opposed to the gating of what is, after all, a natural feature. We could discuss this for hours so if you'd like to start a new thread I'd be more than happy to contribute.

graham said:
I also wonder what view is taken on shafts that exist in remarkably close proximity to housing estates where many young children live.

Obviously, in the example you mention, some form of protection or covering would have to be provided on public safety grounds. Of course I would accept this but I would prefer access for cavers to be available without the use of a key if at all possible. For example, don't some of the stone mines in the Bath area have grilles that can be opened with a special type of spanner or something?





 

Hammy

Member
cap 'n chris said:
NigR said:
If it was down to me there would be no gates on any caves anywhere, just as I've always said.

From this is it fair to say you're not bothered much by caves suffering wanton damage?

From this is it fair to say that you think that all caves should be gated and access controlled Chris?
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Hammy said:
cap 'n chris said:
NigR said:
If it was down to me there would be no gates on any caves anywhere, just as I've always said.

From this is it fair to say you're not bothered much by caves suffering wanton damage?

From this is it fair to say that you think that all caves should be gated and access controlled Chris?

From this it is fair to say that I think the present situation works well, all things considered.
 

graham

New member
The Box Mines require a large allen key. However, this apparent ease of access has not prevented them being vandalised.
 

Charlie

New member
graham said:
The Box Mines require a large allen key. However, this apparent ease of access has not prevented them being vandalised.

And Knotlow + Hillocks (Monyash, darbyshire) need an adjustable spanner/mole wrench/set of pipe grips
 

NigR

New member
bubba said:
Can we please keep this on topic, ie discussing DYO and not a general discussion on access which I'm pretty sure has been done before anyway.

I entirely agree, hence my suggestion to cap'n chris that he start a new thread if he would like to talk about access in general.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
DONE!

No, not "access in general"; I'm very keen to hear of your solutions to access which (a) don't require gating while (b) ensuring caves do not suffer damage.
 

graham

New member
On gating:

St Cuthbert's Swallet, Withyhill Cave and G.B. Cavern are all in far better nick than Swildon's Hole and Rod's Pot.
 

NigR

New member
I may be accused of being pedantic but I would like to point out that I did not start this thread (as it states at the top), I merely suggested to cap'n chris that he should start one if he wished to discuss the issues raised.

Also, would it not be a good idea to take this out of the Wales section as it is clearly not going to be restricted to talking about the gating of Welsh caves (some Mendip caves have already been mentioned)?

Having said that, I will stand by my offer to contribute to the discussion, so here you are:

cap 'n chris said:
I'm very keen to hear of your solution to access which (a) doesn't require gating while (b) ensuring caves do not suffer damage.

One solution could be that if you discover a beautifully decorated area of cave which is particularly vulnerable to damage it might be a good idea not to over-publicise your discovery. This is what happens in parts of Southern France and it works really well - absolutely staggering formations but, with one or two exceptions, hardly any gates or restrictions on access.




 

graham

New member
NigR said:
One solution could be that if you discover a beautifully decorated area of cave which is particularly vulnerable to damage it might be a good idea not to over-publicise your discovery. This is what happens in parts of Southern France and it works really well - absolutely staggering formations but, with one or two exceptions, hardly any gates or restrictions on access.

That technique works better in remote areas. It is highly unlikely that such a discovery would remain known to only the select few on Mendip, for example.
 
it might be a good idea not to over-publicise your discovery. This is what happens in parts of Southern France and it works really well - absolutely staggering formations but, with one or two exceptions, hardly any gates or restrictions on access

So far better to allow unrestricted access to people who are friends of friends or in with the in crowd than to allow otherwise responsible cavers who are happy to comply with access agreements and conservation requirements entry...purely because they don't drink in the right pub or mix in the right circles...
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
er am I in the right topic?

I hate gates, they are a form of vandalizum and directly affects the uptake of new people getting involved. I think its a valid point to question why we feel the need to gate natural things or indeed old abandoned mines from people. We all seam to be assuming everyone else is an idiot and needs protecting. Did you read about the FO thinks old people are 'shock horror' taking risks on holiday! The majority of the BBC feedback comments were that were all fed up with being treated like retards who need protecting from ourself's.

I would prefer a harder entry then a locked gate, a vertical shaft, a wet U bend.
If your skilled enough to get in you deserve it!

I hate the idea that you have to be part of the 'in-crowd' to get a key.
IE, know someone who is a member of a club to get a key or just to know who to ask! Gates still lack the information to inform the interested who to contact.

I hate the idea that you have to sometimes contact 'so and so' for permits then a key.
You end up playing TAG, we all have busy lives and maybe live miles away. People also tell me of having the trip cancelled on them for no reason.

As an example - Why does Cuckoo Cleeves need a key?
1. Its far from the road.
2. its a short shaft, ie hard to access without basic skills.
3. Its a fine little cave but its not loaded with pretties! - IE whats being protected?
4. It houses no bats.

All it needs is a lid so people/animals dont fall down it.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
NigR said:
One solution could be that if you discover a beautifully decorated area of cave which is particularly vulnerable to damage it might be a good idea not to over-publicise your discovery. This is what happens in parts of Southern France and it works really well - absolutely staggering formations but, with one or two exceptions, hardly any gates or restrictions on access.

Nice idea, NigR, but one which surely is of historic basis and unlikely to be valid with the advent of t'interweb with information being fluid and easily gained at the click of a button; any cave which is noteworthy is going to become known about pretty quickly, I guess: sh*tty little scrote holes kept secret will no doubt remain secret, wherever they may be.

In the UK I suspect "keeping schtuum" is only likely to be effective in the short term (immediately after a discovery and before its existence becomes more widely known - after all, isn't there a moral imperative to survey and publish, thereby ensuring it gets a wider press by default?).
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
NigR said:
I may be accused of being pedantic but I would like to point out that I did not start this thread (as it states at the top), I merely suggested to cap'n chris that he should start one if he wished to discuss the issues raised.

Also, would it not be a good idea to take this out of the Wales section as it is clearly not going to be restricted to talking about the gating of Welsh caves (some Mendip caves have already been mentioned)?

Noted, and actioned.
 

NigR

New member
jasonbirder said:
So far better to allow unrestricted access to people who are friends of friends or in with the in crowd than to allow otherwise responsible cavers who are happy to comply with access agreements and conservation requirements entry...purely because they don't drink in the right pub or mix in the right circles...

Nobody is being denied access, the discovery would be open to everyone. Granted, some people would have to make more effort to find it than others but this has distinct benefits. If you stumble across some wonderful formations that you realise have been kept secret for some considerable time you immediately realise that you have a moral obligation to respect the wishes of the discoverers. I know this works because it has happened to me and I have done just that.

graham said:
It is highly unlikely that such a discovery would remain known to only the select few on Mendip, for example.

Perhaps you could provide greater detail as to why this would be the case as I am not all that well up on the Mendip caving scene.

c**tplaces said:
er am I in the right topic?

I hate gates, they are a form of vandalizum and directly affects the uptake of new people getting involved. I think its a valid point to question why we feel the need to gate natural things or indeed old abandoned mines from people. We all seam to be assuming everyone else is an idiot and needs protecting. Did you read about the FO thinks old people are 'shock horror' taking risks on holiday! The majority of the BBC feedback comments were that were all fed up with being treated like retards who need protecting from ourself's.

I would prefer a harder entry then a locked gate, a vertical shaft, a wet U bend.
If your skilled enough to get in you deserve it!

I hate the idea that you have to be part of the 'in-crowd' to get a key.
IE, know someone who is a member of a club to get a key or just to know who to ask! Gates still lack the information to inform the interested who to contact.

I hate the idea that you have to sometimes contact 'so and so' for permits then a key.
You end up playing TAG, we all have busy lives and maybe live miles away. People also tell me of having the trip cancelled on them for no reason.

As an example - Why does Cuckoo Cleeves need a key?
1. Its far from the road.
2. its a short shaft, ie hard to access without basic skills.
3. Its a fine little cave but its not loaded with pretties! - IE whats being protected?
4. It houses no bats.

All it needs is a lid so people/animals dont fall down it.

I agree with everything c**tplaces says here.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
Isnt the landowner a Wessex member, who brought the cave and access to it. Not wanting to pressurize that person, its maybe unfair.

BUT -  To me Cuckoo Cleeves is a prime example of a cave that doesn't need a lock and so is basicly locked because of historical reasons and/or some body implying everyone else is an idiot who needs protecting from the (hidden/hardto access) cave, bit loaded but true.

If a similar example cave exists thats locked it should be reviewed too!
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
c**tplaces said:
To me Cuckoo Cleeves is a prime example of a cave that doesn't need a lock

Keen to hear your reasons why it doesn't need a key.

My guesses why it does include:

1) It's on private land and the owner wishes to minimise liability for mishap(s)
2) The entrance section is near vertical and could seriously affect the wellbeing of (mis)adventurous inquisitive types/chancers
3) The cave's existence is in the public domain and it is not a secret location
4) Over half a million people live within an hour's drive of it

 

graham

New member
NigR said:
graham said:
It is highly unlikely that such a discovery would remain known to only the select few on Mendip, for example.
Perhaps you could provide greater detail as to why this would be the case as I am not all that well up on the Mendip caving scene.

Mendip as a whole, not just the caving scene, works something like a village. Everybody knows everybody else, what they are doing, where they are doing it. Although "countryside", every piece of land is under frequent scrutiny. It would be nigh on impossible to open a new cave without the knowledge of several locals and landowners, too many comings and goings. Many cavers live on or very close to Mendip, they chat with locals on a daily basis. In such a network the keeping of secrets gets to be virtually impossible.
 
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