First caves advice ? Yorkshire Dales

01lambournti

New member
Hi everyone,

I?m going on holiday in April to the Yorkshire Dales with a friend, and we?re really keen to try caving. Neither of us have had any caving experience before, but it?s something that I?ve wanted to do for a long time. However, it?s not primarily a caving trip so we?d just like to spend a couple of afternoons or so trying it out, at which point we?ll be based in the Ingleton area. We?re aged 21 and 20, physically fairly fit, and accustomed to some other outdoor pursuits such as hillwalking etc.

We?d like to try something fairly interesting, rather than exploring a passage which stops after 10 metres? If at all possible though, we?d also like to go without a guide, as apparently it?s more exciting ?exploring? on your own (i.e. in a pair). But we also realize the need to be safe and not take stupid risks.

With all this in mind I?ve browsed the internet a little (from Google, this forum and Caving Wiki especially) and come up with the following ideas. What do you think? Is there something important I?ve missed, or got horribly wrong?

---First afternoon (limited by time, and possibly no access to hire equipment)---
Yordas Cave to whet our appetites
- is this OK to do without any proper gear (apart from some handheld torches), and can you go beyond the main chamber before it gets too serious?

---IF DRY: Second afternoon---
Great Douk Cave, hopefully from the waterfall right through to Middle Washfold exit
- we?d hire helmets with torches (and spares) from Ingleton on the day. We?d also tell them where we were going, and check that they thought the weather was OK

---IF WET: Second afternoon---
Area around Attermire Scar: Attermire Cave, Jubilee Cave, Victoria Cave
- would helmets still be wise for this? Or would handheld torches and no headgear be safe?

From my (limited) understanding, Great Douk is a substantial and rewarding but easy cave, although prone to flooding. The Attermire Scar caves are suitable in all weather conditions, but much shorter and not so interesting. And apparently Yordas Cave is simple enough for random walkers to explore without any equipment at all, at least as far as the main chamber. My other question was whether it?s possible to get lost in Great Douk cave??

Finally, we?d bring the following kit:
- Helmet & headtorch (Great Douk only)
Spare windup torch (with batteries) x2
Warm clothes, gloves
Full waterproofs (GD)
Sturdy wellingtons (GD) or walking boots (Attermire Scar)
Change of clothing & towels for after!! (GD)
And would an overall / one-piece thing be necessary for GD?

I?d be grateful for your comments, encouraging or otherwise!

Thanks,
Tim
 

ChrisJC

Well-known member
My recollection of Great Douk is that the passage gradually gets lower & lower, and right at the point you think that it's so small you think you must have gone wrong, it forks. I think it's the left fork, and pretty quickly you can ascend upwards and outwards. The other fork just gets even smaller!

Nice cave though!

Chris.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
I'll be encouraging - go for it. You've obviously thought things through.

Yordas is a walk-in and will only take about 20 minutes to look around, so I suggest that you don't make it the main objective of the day. You can wander around the Main Chamber and to the back where a waterfalls drops in from the passages above. No special clothes are required, although a hat (you should always wear something on your head when in a cave) will protect your head from a slight knock, and wellies will allow you to paddle through water without worrying about getting walking boots wet. The Main Chamber is a big place, so strong lights are useful.

Great Douk is a splendid cave, and a good place to find out whether the underground world is for you. As far as equipment is concerned you definitely need to hire a helmet and lamp from Ingleton, and it would also be useful to hire an oversuit (they are like a robust boiler-suit) as well. Normal waterproof clothing will get snagged and rip.

If you go all the way to the exit at Middle Washfold be prepared to get wet to the extent of lying in the stream. You really should do so if you really want to experience the full ambience of caving. The fun starts where it starts to be become low, and you need to find your way out through a slightly confusing set of shallow passages.  I also suggest that having emerged into daylight, you return the same way.

Great Douk is an active cave, and although safe in average and damp conditions, should be avoided after periods of prolonged rain or if there is likely to be a downpour.

As far as the caves on Attemire are concerned, personally I wouldn't bother. But if you do, I would take helmets, lamps, and an oversuit.
 

dunc

New member
To echo the above - gor for it, be safe and have fun!

When I first started caving I visited the caves around the Attermire area as part of a walk. Mostly easy walk in stuff, langcliffe says he wouldn't bother - to be honest they are nothing too exciting (Attermire is the best, followed by Victoria) but it's definitely something to keep in mind if the weather is wet!

Great Douk was what I moved on to after the above, fun and enjoyable, just take heed of the warnings given by langcliffe. Clamber up the waterfall and keep following the stream (under the open hole, past an oxbow) until you reach an obvious fork (right goes nowhere) left is the low crawling way on; first time I was there it looked like a good soaking so turned back for twice the fun!! Second visit was very dry and we followed the crawl to clamber out Middle Washfold. Depending on water levels you'll either stay mostly dry or get wet following that final crawl.

And if you get chance to come back for another holiday, try the Spring or August Bank Holidays so you can get chance to descend the winch at Gaping Gill, very impressive.
 

kay

Well-known member
Some quick thoughts:

I'd always encourage anyone to go with someone else  on the first trip.

Make sure someone knows where you're going, when you'll be out, and how to raise cave rescue - a trivial injury like a sprained ankle is serious underground.

Check the weather forecast.

No, you can't get lost in Great Douk - you might not find the way on, but you'll still find the way back easily (follow the stream!)
Easily missed - if you turn left just after the entrance waterfall into some uphill crawly passages, you can pop out at a window in the cliff overlooking the shakehole, and you can visit the sump which connects to the adjoining cave - you'll see a line going into the water for people with diving equipment to follow.

Yordas - at the left hand end of the cave (te opposite end from the waterfall) are some small passages which are fun to explore There is also another low entrance, but the passage to that is low and grotty.

Feed well in Ingleton before you go - I'd recommend Inglesport, other people are fans of Bernies. Both are run by cavers, sell and hire gear, give good advice.




 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
Not arguing with langcliffe - hire an oversuit if you want - but I took a group of 6 colleagues from work through Great Douk (and down Sunset) last November and they were all in ordinary waterproofs and were ok, no rips (I think the cave is so well visited that the sharp bits have been fairly well polished). That said I would avoid wearing anything too expensive or new and as he suggests definitely hire a helmet and light for a few quid from Inglesport or Bernies.

Also people often seem tempted to carry a load of stuff with them - don't bother - make sure you have left phones and cameras (unless waterproof) behind and just stick a spare torch and a snickers in your pocket.

Yordas is worth a look but as langcliffe says its only a short trip. Another walking sized cave worth considering if it's dry weather may be Upper Long Churn
 

paul

Moderator
Instead of Yordas, what about Valley Entrance as far as the top of the pitch? Probably a lot more interesting than a bimble around Yordas main chamber, IMHO.

I started caving with a couple of school friends in a similar way back in 1975 - using builders helmets, cheap headtorches and old clothes covered by secondhand cotton boilersuits and cheap leather boots from Millets as it wasn't as easy to hire gear in those days. Have fun. BUT BE WARNED: Caving is ADDICTIVE!
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
paul said:
Instead of Yordas, what about Valley Entrance as far as the top of the pitch? Probably a lot more interesting than a bimble around Yordas main chamber, IMHO.

Tim did originally say:

[quote author=01lambournti]---First afternoon (limited by time, and possibly no access to hire equipment)---
Yordas Cave to whet our appetites
- is this OK to do without any proper gear (apart from some handheld torches), and can you go beyond the main chamber before it gets too serious?[/quote]

I wouldn't recommend the Roof Tunnel without helmets, oversuits, and caplamps.
 

Bob G

New member
That's exactly how I started caving - every trip was an adventure. I recommend hiring a helmet and lamp for each member of the party - just to enjoy the trips without having to worry about head/rock issues and juggling hand torches.  You can hire helmets/lamps in Ingleton.  Valley entrance is a must, but don't fall down the pitch. An oversuit would look nice, but you're still going to get wet, so what's the point?
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Bob G said:
An oversuit would look nice, but you're still going to get wet, so what's the point?

Because the young gentleman was intending to go caving in his regular waterproofs, which is a good way of getting them trashed.
 

01lambournti

New member
Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for all your advice, all of which has been taken into account.

@ChrisJC: Thanks for this ? yes, the websites I?ve seen seem to say it?s the left fork too

@langcliffe: Yep, have seen this website ? I originally looked up all the grade (or level?) 1 caves here to get ideas of where to go. Regarding Yordas, we might not get there until 5pm or so anyway so something that takes 20 minutes is ideal. We?ll take your advice about hats though and just buy a couple before going away. And we?ll have wellies, strong lights etc. Regarding Great Douk, we?ll definitely hire a lamp, and probably an oversuit ? how expensive do you think this would be to hire? Or even to buy? And we?ve no problem with getting wet :p ? point taken about heavy rain, though.

From your second post, is the Roof Tunnel the one which kay mentions? Does anyone have a bit more info about this one?

And your third post ? OK, sounds like we should hire an oversuit each, or otherwise expect not to be able to use our waterproofs again.

@dunc: Yes, the Attermire caves are a backup. In Great Douk, what do you mean by ?under the open hole?? By the way, can the oxbow be used to avoid some crawling? The caving wiki website (or whatever it?s called) seems to suggest it can. Also, out of interest, how low is ?low crawling?? And, we?d love to try Gaping Gill another time.

@kay: There seems to be conflicting advice about whether you should always go with someone else the first time. For Great Douk, do you think it would be sufficient to tell Inglesport / Bernies where and when we were going and ask for weather advice from them too? And for the others we?ll make sure someone knows where we?re going. You suggest that you can?t get lost in Great Douk, and in the very rare event that something happens to both of us, the alarm would be raised so I think that?s all the bases covered. Regarding Yordas, are there any drops we should be wary of in the extra passages?

@sirch2: We?ll see about an oversuit depending on cost, and definitely leave anything valuable behind! As for Upper Long Churn, it sounds like a line might be needed (my friend isn?t 100% great with heights and so I?d want to avoid too much free-climbing, even if relatively safe) and we?d need to get access permission somewhere. Perhaps this is one for the future.

@Bob G: What?s the valley entrance? Is that just the name for the waterfall entrance at Great Douk?

Whoa, that?s a lot of advice, and sorry if I?m trying your patience with all these questions ? probably worth asking the first time though!

Thanks,
Tim :)
 

kay

Well-known member
I always leave call out details with someone, even though I only go into horizontal caves and it's hard to conceive of a situation when one of us wouldn't be able to get out and raise the alarm. Ask or search this site for info on what details to leave and instructions to give. You just need a responsible person who is available to be phoned at the time you expect to be finished - though phone reception in the Dales is rubbish, so you need to allow time to change and get back to Ingleton or Horton and into a reception zone.

Always worth asking weather advice in Ingleton or Bernies.

Yordas - no sudden drops, you're at the bottom level of the cave. You'll be watching your feet anyway, 'cos the floor is bouldery. At the top end, where the water comes in, there are a couple of ways in to the "Chapter House" - the circular chamber where the waterfall comes in - so do explore. Then at the other end there is a low passage (which goes eventually to the low entrance), and a walking height passage into a tiny chamber which overlooks the low passage.

If it's still daylight, it's interesting too to walk up the valley to see where the stream enters the system - you may spot attachment points for fixing ropes for the through trip.

Despite comments above, I think you'll enjoy Yordas, especially if you have never seen a waterfall underground.

Great Douk - you enter up the waterfall and (after exploring the passages on the left) follow the stream upstream. You then come into daylight again at the bottom of  Little Douk Pot. Shortly after,  there's another daylight hole about 25cm across - quote difficult to spot. Even more difficult finding it on the surface!

The passage takes a turn L, the oxbow goes straight on. The passage looks more enticing, but gets rapidly lower - I can remember standing at the end of the oxbow watching my husband scrabbling and spitting out gravel on his way out!

Get into the habit of looking behind you to see what the cave looks like from the other direction - it'll stand you in good stead when you explore more complicated caves.

There are two key route-finding moments. Once you've taken the left fork, what you are looking for is a hole in the ceiling. It's nearly at the end, it's comfortably big enough to get your body through, and once you have you'll find the continuation passage heading off to your left (above the ceiling). Shortly after this, you'll pop up into a chamber (I don't think it's high enough to stand in, but you can definitely sit up and move around). Keep leftwards for the Middle Washfold dry entrances - you come out in the middle of a limestone pavement. There is a tight twisty passage to the right which allegedly comes out at the wet entrance, but I've never succeeded in getting all the way (I'm more nervous when unaccompanied) and wriggling out of it backwards is quite interesting, to say the least.
It's a nice cave, just pure fun.

If your friend is totally and utterly unhappy about heights, as I am - the path down the shakehole drops steeply to the left, but plenty of stout tree roots to hold on to. The waterfall at the entrance is easy to climb, with a good foothold under the fall. If you come out that way, there's no need to climb down the waterfall - there's a crawl along the ledge on the left (looking out) followed by an easy scramble down the bank.

You don't need a rope for Upper Long Churn. Make sure you find the right entrance - its the second enclosure above Alum Pot, not the first. There are three entrances  - one goes under a rock bridge and comes briefly into daylight again - that's Lower Long Churn. One is vary low with water coming out of it - Wilsons. The other is Upper Long Churn - there's bit of a hole on the left as you enter to be beware of, but it's easy wide walking past it. And then you just follow the stream upwards to the final waterfall chamber. Your friend would need a line to climb up the waterfall, so instead just turn your lights off, enjoy the atmosphere then switch your lights back on and make your way out, exploring side passages and oxbows as you go.

The permit is from the obvious white and black farmhouse set back slightly in the hamlet of Selside (on the R as you come from Horton) They usually also have a sign offering eggs for sale. Just knock and it's something like 50p each.

Valley Entrance is in Kingsdale - it's the route into the master cave taking the water from Swinsto and Simpson and others. It'salso known as the Roof Tunnel (it was discovered from the inside, the tunnel in the roof of the master cave).

Remember that the purpose of your waterproof clothes is not to keep you dry, it's to impede the flow of the water so that your body heat has only one lot of water to warm up - so if you have some old waterproofs that you don't mind getting trashed, they'd do you perfectly well for Great Douk. Gloves - I'd suggest marigolds, cheap, waterproof, and don't obstruct your fingers. They, or heavier duty versions, are what most people wear in the Dales. I don't worry about a towel - when you're standing naked by the side of the road with the rain coming at you horizontally, getting dry clothes on seems a much higher priority than getting the last bit of damp off your body.

There's lots of horizontal caves in the Dales, and you can have a great deal of fun, so there's no need to rush into SRT unless that's what you want to do.

Don't forget to come back here after your trip and tell us all about it!
 

dunc

New member
In Great Douk, what do you mean by ?under the open hole?? By the way, can the oxbow be used to avoid some crawling? The caving wiki website (or whatever it?s called) seems to suggest it can. Also, out of interest, how low is ?low crawling?? And, we?d love to try Gaping Gill another time.
After you've clambered up the waterfall and walked a short distance you'll reach daylight again, this is the open hole of Little Douk, you can glance up at the sky and then continue onwards.
The short dry oxbow is the most common route, following the stream does involve a short flat-out crawl with the water (IIRC, been a number of years). Low crawling; again, been a few years, think the left fork is mainly hands and knees with a few bits that are not flat-out but not hands and knees.

To answer another question:
Valley Ent/Roof Tunnel is vaguely described on the wiki. Whilst easy enough it's far better when you are with someone that has access to a ladder and you descend the pitch and stroll up the short but fine streamway.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Bernies has a price list for hiring equipment on their website:

http://www.berniescafe.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=953&osCsid=28e5f0b67b471bbdaa582ffbf7ac5280

Inglesport may well do as well: http://www.inglesport.com/

Valley Entrance is the bottom entrance to Kingsdale Master Cave, in Kingsdale opposite Braida Garth Farm. It consists of a walking size passage which leads to a twenty foot drop into Kingsdale Master Cave. The drop requires specialist equipment, and some of the passage leading to it has knee deep in water (once upon a time it was neck deep).

What Kay says is technically the correct: go with experienced people; tell someone where you're going; be prepared for emergencies etc.

But, frankly, if we had all done that very few of us would have got started. Providing you have enough lights, and don't go underground when the weather makes active caves dangerous, I wouldn't get too paranoid about going into Great Douk and Yordas. You really cannot get lost (there are very few caves in Yorkshire where you can, unfortunately), and the worst that is at all likely to happen is that someone twists an ankle and has to hobble out. It sounds like you're experienced outdoor types, and caving in Great Douk is no more risky than climbing Ingleborough. Just go for it, and enjoy the experience.
 

Andrew W

New member
Tim

Looks like several people have responded while I was typing this but some of it may be helpful.

If you look at the following website http://www.berniescafe.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=1_76&osCsid=4562e40a7a02bab4ebea5e638586f70e you'll get an idea of equipment hire prices. Basically the full works including lamp, helmet, under and over suits can be had for ?12.77 per day. Inglesport also hire lamps and helmets but I don't think they do other equipment hire (could be wrong on this). You'd be better off hiring unless you are sure you want to get into this properly. Bernies normally have a good range of sizes for hire.

The roof tunnel and valley entrance are the same place. Basically Valley Entrance is one of the entrances into the West Kingsdale Master Cave (the other entrances require descending pitches from the top of the hill). The roof tunnel is the entrance passage that goes from the entrance to the master cave. Unfortunately the master cave itself would require descending a 6m pitch. The roof tunnel itself is a decent length with some nice passage and an interesting side passage featuring an awkward climb up into a chamber above. You can see a survey of the cave here: http://cravenpotholeclub.org/survey.aspx?surveyname=WestKingsdale.jpg

The entrance is on the same road as Yordas heading back towards Ingleton. In fact you can see the entrance on google streetview here.http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=54.19142,-2.462225&spn=0,0.090551&z=14&layer=c&cbll=54.191495,-2.462096&panoid=byTkTWFPNC9hmsqks7dd-Q&cbp=12,284.01,,0,1.08. It is the small oil drum in the side of the hill and is only a couple of minutes walk from the car.

The low crawling in Great Douk is flat out. I.e. you are on your belly in the water (not deep). It doesn't go for too far though at a point not far from the end you need to move up into a slightly higher passage - it looks like you are at the end of the passage but there is a hole above you followed by another passage. There are then a couple of entrances if you fork left just beyond here. One is at the end of the passage. The other is up to the right but you can see daylight coming in both.

Long Churns don't really require a line. There are multiple entrances. The upstream entrance to  upper long churn has a climb down at Dr Bannister's Handbasin which is often lined. However you can get to the bottom of this by going upstream from the middle entrance instead. You just can't do the through trip without the climb. It is easy enough without a line but it can be reassuring to have one. You can also go into lower long churn from the middle entrance. There is quite a bit of passage before you come to dolly tubs pitch where you would need a ladder or rope. There is also Borrins Moor cave immediately upstream from Upper Long Churn. This doesn't need any tackle but is cold and wet this time of year if you go through the resurgence entrance. Permission for Long Churns is as simple as calling at Selside Farm and paying a small fee.

Have fun.
 

paull

New member
there is always the caves at ribblehead,
thistle and runscar, nice little in n out caves  :clap: 
 

darwen dave

New member
paull said:
there is always the caves at ribblehead,
thistle and runscar, nice little in n out caves  :clap:

On the subject of Ribblehead, Lower Gunnerfleet is a little gem.

Birkwith cave and Old Ing cave near Horton in Ribblesdale are well worth considering. Both should be doable without getting wet above the knees.
 

dunc

New member
darwen dave said:
Birkwith cave and Old Ing cave near Horton in Ribblesdale are well worth considering. Both should be doable without getting wet above the knees.
Both are good, easy caves, but they both contain active streamways and obviously best avoided in wet weather.
 

kay

Well-known member
Apart from Jubilee etc mentioned above, what would be the horizontal wet weather options?
 
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