I was having a conversation the other day on changes made, by manufacturers, to caving equipment. We could both think of allot examples of changes for the worse but few examples of improvements.

Negative
Warmback cordura oversuite - fantastic as it is extremely tough, why has the inside breast pocket gone from a nice wide opening at the top that you could access with gloves on to a side opening that you can barely fit your hand in?

Warmback furry undersuite - excellent everyday caving wear, why has the wieght of the fleece got lighter?

Positive
I like the small square pocket on the arm of the Warmback oversuite but it is a little bit too tight for a headlight battery.

Negative: The new petzl stops have aquired more plastic on the latch that keeps the cheeks together... WHY the pld metal ones felt much more robust

Positive: The ergonomic grip on the Ascention is better than the old metal

Warmback furry undersuite - excellent everyday caving wear, why has the wieght of the fleece got lighter?

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Positive.... I can fit into the junior sizes and save myself 15 pounds.
not really sure if this is something to be proud of or not....

LEDs

Positives:
Longer battery duration.
More diffuse lighting so you can see a bigger area at you feet.

Negatives:
Cant see around big stuff so well.
The blue colour.

i think the blue colour is not a negative.
decent LEDs are a much better white than fillament bulbs.
Talking to freshers down Giants last night. the flowstone was either white or yellow depending on if you look using an LED or filament

I recall being told how slate miners resisted the change from candles to caplamps as they no longer recognised the subtleties of the good and bad slate in the bright light, because they had got so used to working with candles. They had grown up with candles and couldn't work properly without them. So for them the caplamp was not an improvement! I suppose they must have got used to them in time, and no doubt looked back on the 'good old days'. We have all grown up with the yellow light of filament bulbs, not only underground, but everywhere else, so this alien blue light is bound to make us feel a bit odd at first.

Some white LEDs can vary in colour quite a bit.

[edited after comments to try and avoid avoid appearing too single-track-minded regarding LEDs - apologies for getting carried away, and following the thread off-topic]

:roll: Here we go again, this thread was not intended to be yet another protracted debate about the pro's & con's of LED's. :roll:

Its supposed to be about going down the shop and replacing a piece of kit only to find that you cant get it anymore because the manufacturer has decided that it should be improved.

Do caving equipment suppliers field test thier designs prior to release on the market?

Bat girl said:

Warmback furry undersuite - excellent everyday caving wear, why has the wieght of the fleece got lighter?

Click to expand...

Positive.... I can fit into the junior sizes and save myself 15 pounds.
not really sure if this is something to be proud of or not....

Click to expand...

I have got a piece of cave for you to look at, sounds like you are the right size

Ive got one

Dragon bags

Positive
Bomb proof bags (not quite bagshawe proof though) really good design and last far longer than anything else on the market.

Negative.
Suddenly they develop metal buckles.
apparently they are easier to adjust. However they cut straight though the straps in about 2 trips. Christ - how often do you 'adjust' your shoulder straps on a trip. Whats more use - a bag with easy adjust straps or one where the straps haven't just snapped. :roll:

positive - Warmbac cordura come in a wide range of sizes

negative - they are all made for people much more well insulated than me. To get the height I end up looking like an advert for Slimming World in my old fat clothes

oh boy - with you on that one.

My warmbac oversuit size is an M always have been. I ended up taking my most recent purchase back convinced it must be an M+ labeled up wrong.

HnH wouldn't have it though - Chest measurement (measured along the seam at chest height) was the same.

However the ARSE. Jesus - I like like a telly tubby. :x

Come on mr warmbac - Not all of us struggle with birthday squeeze.

I thought my comment on blue LEDs would be controversial! I know what you meant in your question, but LEDs are seen as an advancement in caving kit.

Not sure about what the older versions of the warmbac furries are like, but the newer ones seem to be designed for pencil necks. My velcro doesn't reach across to do up and the hooks stick into my neck, which is very uncomfortable. I have heard others have the same experience. I think next time I will buy a petzl undersuit despite its high price.
I would probably buy a Dragon oversuit as it has braces, which is a very good design feature. It is useful when you are stomping around a hot dry Welsh cave: you can remove your oversuit to the waist and it doesn't fall down, keeping you cool.

andymorgan said:

you can remove your oversuit to the waist and it doesn't fall down, keeping you cool.

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Whats wrong with tying your warmbac arms round your waist. Ive walked in to many a cave on a warm summers day with my suit arranged like that. (not that I have a problem with dragon suits, I've not seen em in action and if they are anything like the bags - they should be bomb proof).

Brendan said:

positive - Warmbac cordura come in a wide range of sizes

negative - they are all made for people much more well insulated than me. To get the height I end up looking like an advert for Slimming World in my old fat clothes

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And some of us are women, and we're a different shape - not the bit you're thinking of! The problem is with larger hip measurements, especially when you're my height. I'm fed up of having to cope with legs that cover the ends of my toes.

SamT said:

Whats wrong with tying your warmbac arms round your waist. Ive walked in to many a cave on a warm summers day with my suit arranged like that.

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Once covered in slick mud they do not stay tied around you waist and quite often you find your suit around your ankles! Same problem also applies in crawls, it becomes untied and you leave it behind.

Though I was doubtful at first about fixed tackle-bag straps, my old petzl bag with fixed 2" straps has been excellent - I'm not sure how well the new ones with 1" straps and buckles at the bottom would compare, even if I could afford one.

Kay, if you find oversuit legs generally too long, it might be worth considering the Beaver suits (as sold in Bernies) at least some of which seem to be at the other extreme. My legs are short for my height, yet buying a suit where the body fits me, the suit legs are definitely on the short side, though just-about long enough. Otherwise they are excellent - cheap, pretty hardwearing, and good features - zip as well as velcro, cuff seals, etc. They do lose waterproofing over time, but still end up as a good breathable suit for warmer or drier trips.

I do wish it was still possible to buy bollard/lizard hangers - not ideal for every kind of hang, but very light and strong.

The old yellow Troll oversuit with the wading gusset and extra flap behind the front seal was the best suit I ever had for wet conditions - with the hood up, and wearing gauntlets, it was possible to stand under a serious waterfall or climb up a cascade and stay completely dry, or wade to belt-level if the suit was sealed to the wellies, and it was also possible for blokes to relieve themselves with ease whilst still wearing a harness.


I used to wear out the teeth on Petzl jammer cams whilst having the bodies fairly intact. Now, the bodies seem to wear out long before the cams. I don't know if it's just me doing different caving, or if cams have been hardened or bodies softened.

i can vouch for the dragon suit - i bought one 3 years ago, and though admittedly i don't cave as much as some of the members of SUSS, i'm still very impressed that it only has 2 tiny holes on each knee where the knee pads have rubbed! and i agree that the braces are great!

also if you buy it from the shop you can get measured and have it adjusted to actually fit you - legs shortened/waist taken in...and it's done professionally, so no probs with shoddy home improvements

andymorgan said:

Once covered in slick mud they do not stay tied around you waist and quite often you find your suit around your ankles! Same problem also applies in crawls, it becomes untied and you leave it behind.

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So you do crawls with your suit tied round your waist :? weirdo :wink: .

Surely you wear a belt though. And dont give it any of that I dont carry a lead battery therefore I dont need a belt rubbish. Everyone needs a belt. How do you drag tackle bags otherwise.

sounds like these dragon suits are the dogs then.
Would like to know if they are Warmbac tough or just normal tough.

i've never had a warmbac so can't really comment... i think the material's a bit thicker than warmbac ones...