Waterways diving
- Thread starter amozzer
- Start date
benshannon
Active member
last time i was there i saw a thin dive line on the left wall that may have always been there, but i had never noticed it before. theres also a blue pipe that i think they are using as a syphon but i dont know where too. does this sump go anywhere?
Pitlamp
Well-known member
You can post this sort of query directly in the Cave Diving Group website.
Here's what it says in the (as yet unpublished) notes for the next CDG Peak District Sump Index:
Wotno Sump
This sump terminates the cave at the deepest point (125 m below the entrance). It is semi static (with an occasional flood pulse hitting it), being fed for part of the year by a tiny trickle only. The level of the sump surface does not vary and is about 25 m above resurgence level. Preliminary dives have followed the underwater passage for 25 m to a constriction, the maximum depth being 4 m. A sketch plan is available (1).
References:
1.www.keyhole.org.uk/digs_waterways.asp
I think it's been dived since then but can't remember the outcome without checking more recent CDG Newsletters (& just a bit preoccupied with something else as I type). If you visit any decent caving library, they should have these.
Here's what it says in the (as yet unpublished) notes for the next CDG Peak District Sump Index:
Wotno Sump
This sump terminates the cave at the deepest point (125 m below the entrance). It is semi static (with an occasional flood pulse hitting it), being fed for part of the year by a tiny trickle only. The level of the sump surface does not vary and is about 25 m above resurgence level. Preliminary dives have followed the underwater passage for 25 m to a constriction, the maximum depth being 4 m. A sketch plan is available (1).
References:
1.www.keyhole.org.uk/digs_waterways.asp
I think it's been dived since then but can't remember the outcome without checking more recent CDG Newsletters (& just a bit preoccupied with something else as I type). If you visit any decent caving library, they should have these.
alastairgott
Well-known member
Didn?t RM (Rob SUSS) have a dive in there, or think about it. :blink:
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Yes, I think so. Let's have a look in the Newsletters . . . .
. . . got it!:
CDG NL 203 (April 2017) pages 7& 8: RM; mentions Mark Smith having dived it previously (but no reference). Problems making progress due to pipes in way from previous sump removal attempts. Awkward terrain (max depth 2 m) including at least one "corkscrew" restriction to airbell at 20 m from base. Could hear flowing stream in airbell.
CDG NL 206 (Jan 2018) page 15: RM; could not find an open continuation below water but managed to survey the sump. Suggested best bet would be to find a way to drain the sump and open an above water tube continuing from airbell by rock removal. Supplied all information to the diggers involved.
As an aside, I do remember the late Charles Read visiting this site; he certainly described taking cylinders down but I don't know the outcome of any diving he may have done. (This was before RM's dives summarised above.) Charles did have a substantial website describing his cave diving; I don't know if it's still live (try Googling his name - but don't confuse him with another CDG member Charlie Reid-Henry).
I think your best bet (amozzer) would be to make contact with those who have been digging at Waterways, long term (unless you are one of them?).
. . . got it!:
CDG NL 203 (April 2017) pages 7& 8: RM; mentions Mark Smith having dived it previously (but no reference). Problems making progress due to pipes in way from previous sump removal attempts. Awkward terrain (max depth 2 m) including at least one "corkscrew" restriction to airbell at 20 m from base. Could hear flowing stream in airbell.
CDG NL 206 (Jan 2018) page 15: RM; could not find an open continuation below water but managed to survey the sump. Suggested best bet would be to find a way to drain the sump and open an above water tube continuing from airbell by rock removal. Supplied all information to the diggers involved.
As an aside, I do remember the late Charles Read visiting this site; he certainly described taking cylinders down but I don't know the outcome of any diving he may have done. (This was before RM's dives summarised above.) Charles did have a substantial website describing his cave diving; I don't know if it's still live (try Googling his name - but don't confuse him with another CDG member Charlie Reid-Henry).
I think your best bet (amozzer) would be to make contact with those who have been digging at Waterways, long term (unless you are one of them?).
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Here is some information about the late Charles Read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Read_(mathematician)
It appears his website (although currently not complete) has been archived:
https://solocavediver.com/
Most of this seems to be about overseas cave diving (he had some good pals in Florida). I've not had time to trawl through exhaustively but you may find something of use if you look through it.
Good luck!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Read_(mathematician)
It appears his website (although currently not complete) has been archived:
https://solocavediver.com/
Most of this seems to be about overseas cave diving (he had some good pals in Florida). I've not had time to trawl through exhaustively but you may find something of use if you look through it.
Good luck!
AndyF
New member
Hi all,
As one of the original diggers I'd like to add to this topic as it's cropped up.
It seems likely that the main sump is fed from the surface stream going down to meet it at a point further on. So draining the sump only seems likely when the surface stream is dry, i.e. late summer.
Just back from the main sump is the other perched sump. It could be possible to drain that sump into the main sump as it's a little higher. This would hopefully overspill some place downstream and not raise the main sump level.
Some of the main sump water could then be pumped back into the higher, now empty perched sump. Whether this would lower the main sump enough to pass is debatable though. The outlet of the perched sump could also be blocked up with concrete, and this would give it more capacity which would help.
Another possibly we considered is to pump the water up to Huge Crawl (just off the bottom of the ladder) We don't know where it goes, and it may just create a circular flow, but if Huge crawl were to bypass the main sump it may allow emptying that way. It would mean pumping water up maybe 40m or so though which is no mean feat.
There must be a dry route somehow though, as the cave always draughts... The main draughts underground we saw were in the choke above Room 101, that draughts like mad. But a big looks frightening upward boulder choke
The obvious thing though for the cave, would be to divert the surface water to the "dry entrance" and start a surface dig in the normally wet entrance (if that makes sense). Chances are good that that would open up a whole parallel route down into the cave, as the water isnt seen again in the normal cave.
Would need permission from Oakover estates and would generate a lot of rock I think. But solid rocka may not be far away.
As one of the original diggers I'd like to add to this topic as it's cropped up.
It seems likely that the main sump is fed from the surface stream going down to meet it at a point further on. So draining the sump only seems likely when the surface stream is dry, i.e. late summer.
Just back from the main sump is the other perched sump. It could be possible to drain that sump into the main sump as it's a little higher. This would hopefully overspill some place downstream and not raise the main sump level.
Some of the main sump water could then be pumped back into the higher, now empty perched sump. Whether this would lower the main sump enough to pass is debatable though. The outlet of the perched sump could also be blocked up with concrete, and this would give it more capacity which would help.
Another possibly we considered is to pump the water up to Huge Crawl (just off the bottom of the ladder) We don't know where it goes, and it may just create a circular flow, but if Huge crawl were to bypass the main sump it may allow emptying that way. It would mean pumping water up maybe 40m or so though which is no mean feat.
There must be a dry route somehow though, as the cave always draughts... The main draughts underground we saw were in the choke above Room 101, that draughts like mad. But a big looks frightening upward boulder choke
The obvious thing though for the cave, would be to divert the surface water to the "dry entrance" and start a surface dig in the normally wet entrance (if that makes sense). Chances are good that that would open up a whole parallel route down into the cave, as the water isnt seen again in the normal cave.
Would need permission from Oakover estates and would generate a lot of rock I think. But solid rocka may not be far away.
benshannon
Active member
That's very interesting 🤔 always something to discover 😁 when I got to the end of huge crawl there's a small hole and you can hear water running. I wonder where that goes? Or do you. Think that's down to the main sump?
Is the modern survey good enough to check the levels? Asking because the resurgence is in the bed of the River Manifold at Ilam, so it's underwater. I did the dye tests way back before the extensions were found and we put the dye into the sink below the brambles, just "upstream" from the dry entrance. That water wasn't seen anywhere in the cave as it was known at that time so it may take a completely different route to the resurgence.
When we checked the shallow dry valley up the hill from the resurgence point in the river bed, there didn't seem to be any rock exposed anywhere which might give a hint as to any opening into the system there. AFAIK the whole of the area, including the woodland in which the dry valley is situated, is owned by the National Trust.
I'm really intrigued to hear that, according to Andy F, the main cave always draughts. It's a very odd place.
When we checked the shallow dry valley up the hill from the resurgence point in the river bed, there didn't seem to be any rock exposed anywhere which might give a hint as to any opening into the system there. AFAIK the whole of the area, including the woodland in which the dry valley is situated, is owned by the National Trust.
I'm really intrigued to hear that, according to Andy F, the main cave always draughts. It's a very odd place.
