I am researching the latest situation on insurance for caving expeditions. I believe Dogtag have stopped covering exploratory caving now.

What is the feedback about the rescue in the summer - did the insurance cover the costs, what company was it etc.

Has anyone had any experience getting insurance recently - which companies did they use?

Main interest is rescue, medical and repatriation cover - does it include helicopter rescue costs etc...?

Thanks

Where are you heading to?

Dogtag have stopped for expeditions. I think they say to contact them and ask though. I went with Snowcard over the summer and it seemed reasonable.
Don't have any of the paperwork now to check what it covered and i cant remember to be fair.

Primarily Mulu, but also interested in the current situation generally, perhaps for BCA.

Interested in how the European rescue was covered.

cavermark said:

Main interest is rescue, medical and repatriation cover - does it include helicopter rescue costs etc...?

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Alpenverein - for all the Earth including North Korea.

http://www.alpenverein.at/portal/service/mitgliedschaft/mitgliedervorteile/membership-english-version/0100_insured-worldwide.php
http://aacuk.org.uk

I would be very wary of the Alpenverein policy as it does not mention caving in either the policy inclusions or exclusions. I would be wanting some written confirmation on caving and cave rescue actually being covered. The rescue costs cover included in this policy is only 25K Euro. I would imagine the recent rescue in Germany cost considerably more than this. Rescue cover on the Snowcard policy is ?100K and covers different areas of the world depending on, amongst other things, whether there is an organised rescue organisation operating in the area.

Having been involved in foreign expeditions that have resulted in requiring the need for a rescue, this policy needs to be right, not just for the benefit of the person being rescued but for other expedition members who might otherwise have to pay the rescue fees before rescuers even enter the cave. When we needed the services of a helicopter in Mulu in 1996 we had to pay for it with a credit card and claim it back later. Remember helicopters cost at least ?600/hour.

The recent rescue operations carried out in Peru during the Spanish expedition are a good example of what could happen if you don't have the correct cover. I don't know the details of how much this particular rescue operation cost but I wouldn't be surprised if wasn't considerably more than even the ?100K Snowcard policy.

Mark

   

Dogtag no longer cover expedition caving through their usual policy but if you call them they will still cover you via a new "extreme plus" category. We asked lots of probing questions as to what would/wouldn't be covered, and they did say that it would exclude Personal Liability (covered through BCA anyway) and Personal Accident cover (it wouldn't affect medical emergency cover or non-caving accidents, but they wouldn't compensate for loss of function through any injury acquired whilst caving).

Our expedition nearly all used Dogtag this year (and incidentally did have to claim on one of the policies after an ankle injury on the walk up to camp).

CatM,

How did the claim process go?

Mark

CatM said:

... it would exclude Personal Liability (covered through BCA anyway) ...

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Is BCA membership insurance valid overseas?

cavermark, this year trip to mulu we spoke to dogtag, (will get the name, but think he was a director) they don't cover it under there normal policy, not sure of all the details Carl is supposed to be writing a report to go into the final 2014 report.

Rhys said:

CatM said:

... it would exclude Personal Liability (covered through BCA anyway) ...

Click to expand...

Is BCA membership insurance valid overseas?

Click to expand...

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=legal_insurance:bca_insurance_faq_2008.pdf

"20 Q: Where am I covered?
A: Cover extends worldwide, excluding Canada and the USA, but all cases will be judged only according to
English law."

Mark Wright said:

How did the claim process go?

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Hi Mark,
I don't know the full details but I could put you in touch with the person who does. Here are a couple of relevant excerpts from our as yet unpublished expedition report:

"Dogtag do not provide the emergency assistance abroad. This is done through Travel Insurance Facilities Emergency Assistance hotline (EAS). The main lesson learnt this year is that repatriation is not a quick job. Many phone calls were had between the UK and myself in Montenegro as well as phone calls made by family at home to EAS. My experience of the company was poor. Several times return phone calls were promised by EAS but were not delivered. EAS will not organise transport to the airport but will, after some hassle, organise flights home and transport at the other end, despite offering a door to door service. Whilst the staff on the other end of the phone at EAS are friendly, they do not always offer a great service.

It is worth noting for others that the process of repatriation cannot begin until EAS receive a copy of the medical reports from the hospital on the ground either by email or fax. This must then be considered by a Doctor in the UK and a report sent to EAS before any re-booking of flights can begin. In my case this took longer than normal due to a number of factors, the first of which related to the Montenegrin Hospital which did not send the required documents to EAS, despite assurances that they had been received by EAS. The process of re-sending and then waiting again is time consuming. "

"All expenditure during the course of rescue, treatment, transport, hotels etc can only be refunded after returning home. Thankfully the cost of changing the flights was borne directly by EAS. This emphasises the importance of having reserve funds whilst on the expedition. "

As far as I'm aware there haven't been any problems in claiming expenses.

Hi Mark

We used the Dogtag policy described by CatM for China, although a couple of the team already had annual Snow card policies.  We were assured of the cover as described but were fortunate not to have to test it out.  In my experience it is difficult to recommend a policy from one year to the next as they tend to change.  It would be great if someone did a regular update on insurance though - perhaps another role for UKC. 

Badlad said:

It would be great if someone did a regular update on insurance though - perhaps another role for UKC. 

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While I agree that this would be a useful service, one has to be careful about giving insurance advice widely. Perhaps it would be worth you as management asking one of the price comparison sites like moneysupermarket.com (other services are available) how they deal with that sort of issue?

I said update - not advice.  I don't think we need to worry too much about pulling together peoples experiences.  I'll think about how useful it will be.  Talking of advice - here's some advice I sent around the team list to last years Huautla trip, I understand other trips have copied it and used it too.  Mostly common sense but may be useful to some cavers.



Caving insurance is an essential part of any expedition and it is often a significant cost to individual members.  By contrast, if everything goes well on the expedition then it is a complete and utter waste of money, but if things go wrong it can be the best money you have ever spent in your life.  Believe me, I have experienced the dark side.  Remember you are not really buying insurance for yourself you are buying it to save your caving mates a lot of hassle should something bad happen.  Sure, your mates are going to get you out of the cave, but they will be less keen to pay your medical bills or to hire a private aeroplane to repatriate you home.  So you need insurance to be a team player and you need certainty that the insurance covers you for the type of caving you are involved with.

Caving insurance usually has two parts to it.  One covers you for rescue, medical, repatriation etc and the other covers lost baggage, sports equipment, cancellation etc.  You should have the former but may choose to go without the latter.  Some folk may find they have 'travel' insurance already which can often covers the latter anyway.  This could be on an annual policy with a credit card, home insurance, company insurance etc.

The best place to look for caving insurance are the extreme sport specialists who understand and accept the risk.  You don't want to pay for insurance and then find out, when you most need it, that you're not covered.  If you are getting a months cover for ?20 from a German motoring organisation, or an Austrian Alpine Club when specialists are ten times that, then you've got to ask yourself whether the cover limitations are too restrictive or if they are going to pay out at all.

I have looked at www.dogtag.co.uk and www.snowcard.co.uk who both seem to be popular with UK cavers.  There are other providers.  One important point to note is that caving trips to Mexico require a higher level of cover than is required in Europe.  Therefore if you have an annual policy which is suitable for caving in Matienzo or the Vercors it will probably not be suitable for Mexico.  Keep an eye on the excess as usually the lower the price the higher the excess.  Most insurers require a medical declaration.  It is best to be honest about this and phone the medical advice line if you have any doubts.  If you make any mistakes with this, whether they relate to a claim or not, insurers can use this to void the claim.

I hope you find this useful and your insurance a complete waste of money - meaning you have had a safe trip.