Giants Hole "access Fee" Increase

paul

Moderator
It appears that the amount payable for access to Giants Hole has been increased to ?3 as notified on the collection box in the car park.

 

ditzy 24//7

Active member
with all the groups that use it, it must be a nasty suprise when he works out how much tax to pay
BLOODY TAX MAN!!!
 

Pete K

Well-known member
I think that he'll be in for a shock. At my centre we've basically been told we can't use Giants at all anymore with our groups. An average group of 12 plus staff will cost nearly ?40 a visit. They're just not prepared to pay that much.
Be interesting to see how many other centres go elsewhere.

Personally I'd like to see a gold plated changing hut in return for my money.
 

JB

Member
Pete K said:
Be interesting to see how many other centres go elsewhere.

Hopefully Bagshawe Cavern will be available for use by outdoor centres very soon. There's work happening this Saturday to start the concreting job (http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,6077.0.html) to satisfy the conditions of the PICA inspector. Will be ?2.00 per head and the running of the Cavern has a lot of input from cavers as well as an owner who understands and is sympathetic towards the caving community.

More information here: http://www.eldon.org.uk/bagshawe_cavern.html

When the work's done I'll be organising a couple of Bagshawe evenings for cave leaders/instructors/centre staff to look at the access arrangements and have a look round with Eldon members who know the Cavern, it's history and features well. Send me a PM if anyone's interested.

Cheers,
Jules.
 
H

hoehlenforscher

Guest
Price of red diesel up from 19p to 55p in last 2 years
Price of a tonne of feed up from ?70 to ?200 in last 2 years
Price of a trip down giants up from ?1 to ?3 in the last 22 years

Seems like a very mild rise to me
 

Hughie

Active member
Pete K said:
I think that he'll be in for a shock. At my centre we've basically been told we can't use Giants at all anymore with our groups. An average group of 12 plus staff will cost nearly ?40 a visit. They're just not prepared to pay that much.
Be interesting to see how many other centres go elsewhere.

Personally I'd like to see a gold plated changing hut in return for my money.

Do you get paid to take you're groups of 12 in there?

Hoehlenforscher -  :clap:
 

graham

New member
"Average group of 12 plus staff"  :-\

Now, what does the "Minimal Impact Caving Code" say again ...
 

JB

Member
graham said:
Now, what does the "Minimal Impact Caving Code" say again ...

It says "KEEP PARTY SIZE appropriate to the particular cave that you are visiting."

http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=136

This seems very sensible to me! I love this ideal world that some people inhabit where groups of four youngsters are introduced to caving by their one instructor. With those kind of ratios outdoor centres couldn't even afford to run a vehicle let alone pay the staff so hundreds of children would miss out on a valuable experience.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
It's not the outdoor centre that needs to afford the goodwill fee, it's the client! - and if the cost of sending Little Jimmy caving increases from, say, ?15 to ?18 then there's many who would simply decide to do something else instead.

However, all the Outdoor Centres will clearly require receipts for the goodwill fees for their own accounting, as a matter of course and, on requesting same, it may subsequently transpire that a reduced* non-receipted goodwill fee is acceptable, after all.  Why not check it out.... you never know.


* Possibly even equating to a lesser figure than the original goodwill fee used to be. Fingers crossed.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Hmm, I suspect you might have to come up with some good idea as to why you can take 12+ people in a group into a SSSI (Bagshawe) when the MICC states:

"Keep your party to a small size.  Specific requirements may apply in certain instances and site specific Cave Conservation Plans may stipulate a minimum and/or a maximum party size.  In other cases the recommended party size should be no greater than six".

Which appears to say that, unless a maximum group size is stipulated, in the case of SSSI sites, you're looking at a maximum group size of 6. (Of course this affects other well known SSSI sites around the country, too, such as Swildon's Hole for example - where group sizes in excess of 30 are a frequent occurrence, especially when caving clubs are celebrating yet another glorious "milestone" anniversary and they all dress up in tweed jackets/cardboard helmets etc..).

So, to summarise:

There are so many instances of MICC being ignored that ignoring it appears to be normal. Sounds like as good an idea as any other.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
Don't forget that Carlswark is also in a SSSI and that it is constantly rammed full of groups. Can't remember last time I saw a group smaller than 8. We all need to earn our money somehow.

Yes, I get paid for taking groups down Giants. I don't have a problem paying the ?3 for myself occasionally for personal trips. I just think that it is a shame that we can no longer go underground there because of the costs. I don't see what we are getting for the extra ?1.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Pete K said:
I don't see what we are getting for the extra ?1.

er,.... a pro-active conservation approach! - charge more and fewer people visit. Result: better conservation.

:-\
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Surely you are making an assumption about the tax status of the goodwill "income"? Such idle speculation could also result in significant and unpleasant future problems, not just in Dshire.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
I agree with the conservation point. However we take great care in our impact on the cave environment. We have litter-picked our venues, we have rebuilt the step at Carlswark and we limit our trips to different venues to protect them. Most centres are very consious about there impact. There are only a few bad pennys.
The weekend warriors in from the cities at the weekends seem to have a lot more to answer for than the well managed groups that most centres take underground.
The ethics of group caving have been discussed elsewhere at length so I'll say no more on the subject. What is the point of having these beautiful places if no one ever sees them, lets face it, Carlswark is not exactly a great advert for caving.
 

dunc

New member
Well, I'm glad I've done the trips in Giants I wanted to so I never have to go back! ?2 per bod was enough, but ?3 is too much... Any more and I'd be expecting it to be lit with a tour guide to point out obscure formations that look like this, that and the other!
 
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