ello
just wondering if it might be possible to create a cave science board on the forum. Itd be realy good for lots of reasons partly because it might help create a realy obvios place for people to chuck out ideas theyve got for disertations that they might potentialy need suport with (thinking along the practicle lines of im trying to do this project but need someone to go with me incase i fall and die or i need some advice on wether this is likley to be viable and my department dont have a clue sort of thing rather than this is my dis can you do it for me...) and itd be a realy good general space to discuss topics that curently get lumped in with the general topics board.
cheers
ian

Given the way that Cave & Karst Science has (sadly) become less accessible to the general caver in recent years (due to BCRA's change of publishing policy) I think Ian's suggestion is well worth considering.

Pitlamp said:

Given the way that Cave & Karst Science has (sadly) become less accessible to the general caver in recent years (due to BCRA's change of publishing policy) I think Ian's suggestion is well worth considering.

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How has Cave & Karst Science become less accesible John?
It is still available as a paper journal or a cheaper online version.

Pitlamp said:

Given the way that Cave & Karst Science has (sadly) become less accessible to the general caver in recent years (due to BCRA's change of publishing policy) I think Ian's suggestion is well worth considering.

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It is BCRA's intention to get all the back numbers of C&KS online, though they will still only, effectively, be accessible to members. I do understand that the idea is that membership does bring with it some benefits, but in contrast UBSS (for whom I am editor) have a policy of making all papers freely available to all, online, one year after publication date. We feel that the whole point of this stuff being written is to inform (and, hopefully, educate) and that making it as widely available as possible is a service both to readers and to authors.

That, however, is presumably different to ian.p's idea of a place to discuss ideas.

How has Cave & Karst Science become less accesible?
It is still available as a paper journal or a cheaper online version.
[/quote]

OK Les, I'll try and give you an example but first, let's get things right - it's available to all BCRA members online or as a "more expensive paper option" (not what you wrote). That said the price doesn't actually bother me but let's have things right because it does matter to some other cavers. For some it will be an obstacle to their reading / contributing to C&KS.

So, if you have to pay more for a real journal (as opposed to something you need a computer to read) this means that clubs are just that bit less likely to subscribe. If there are fewer paper versions in existence there will be fewer older members able to donate C&KS to their club libraries when they reach that stage of their caving career. Collections of C&KS in club libraries will become increasingly patchy. So fewer cavers will pick them up, be interested in their contents - and some potential contributors will never become involved. A significant number of club libraries have no computer access so an online subscription isn't an option.

That's one example of a way the present system reduces access for the general caver. There are others.

Believe me Les I know all the arguments for the present system - there's no need to try to justify it here. I've discussed it at length both with Deej Lowe and Dave Gibson. Both have very patiently explained the reasoning. I've also discussed it on and off with John Gunn and Dave Checkley.

I'm acutely aware that they are all volunteers who do huge amounts of work for cavers' benefit. (I also know that you are a person to whom cavers should be immensely grateful, for exactly the same reason Les.) But I'm unconvinced that the present system, favouring online access at the expense of a real journal, is good for cavers or cave science generally. I think it was a wrong decision. I've never fallen out with anybody over it - indeed I've been impressed by the way that the people above have been willing to listen to a member's opinion.

But I still think it was a very unwise move.

I think what Ian is talking about is just a topic on this board where ideas can be discussed, not an official place for 'papers' to be held.

The same as there is a 'technical' and 'For sale' section.  I find all the discussions on lights (for example) really interesting (as I need a new light) although some of it (well a lot really) is above my understanding. 

I would also be interested in 'Science' e.g the theory that a fungus causes the crystals in ice caves to be different, as suggested in the recent TV programme, - discuss 

It is worth reminding those in member clubs that each club has an access code for viewing C&KS online, which their club can make available to them. I believe that take-up of this facility is very low.

I believe that take up for science generally isn't especially high among the caving population. Yet plenty of cavers have scientific training to a greater or lesser degree. This is another reason for making BCRA's flagship science publication as easily available as possible - to encourage more participation.

I'm sure you're right Judi; this isn't the place for actual papers. Indeed I'd argue against any competition with C&KS for papers to publish. Perhaps this is a good place for cavers to discuss how well speleology is embraced by cavers however?

How many topics have been raised on UKCaving this year that would fall into the "Cave Science" category? Is that not a reasonable measure by which to decide whether a new section is required? And if there aren't enough, then isn't it for those who would like a section to demonstrate there is a demand by posting more science posts, whether in General Discussion, or in whatever other category is most suitable.

They do crop up from time to time Peter - and some interesting responses have been generated as a result. I'd have thought it was more a case of whether there's any reason not to. The only one I can think of is the work involved for the good people who run this forum.

graham said:

It is worth reminding those in member clubs that each club has an access code for viewing C&KS online, which their club can make available to them. I believe that take-up of this facility is very low.

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That's worth knowing, I wasn't aware of that 

Pitlamp said:

They do crop up from time to time Peter - and some interesting responses have been generated as a result. I'd have thought it was more a case of whether there's any reason not to. The only one I can think of is the work involved for the good people who run this forum.

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I suggest that having such a section would encourage more to contribute. The downside is that there is one more board for Rhys or Paul to deliberate over when moving topics!

I suspect a posting in a specific "cave science" section would be less subject to thread drift than the same posting in the general section.

graham said:

It is worth reminding those in member clubs that each club has an access code for viewing C&KS online, which their club can make available to them. I believe that take-up of this facility is very low.

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How exactly does one go about this?

If you can inform me I can pass the information on to my fellow club members.

barrabus said:

graham said:

It is worth reminding those in member clubs that each club has an access code for viewing C&KS online, which their club can make available to them. I believe that take-up of this facility is very low.

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How exactly does one go about this?

If you can inform me I can pass the information on to my fellow club members.

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IIRC the log in information is on the club's white BCRA membership card. It is important that the information is only given to your members and not publicised more widely.

barrabus said:

graham said:

It is worth reminding those in member clubs that each club has an access code for viewing C&KS online, which their club can make available to them. I believe that take-up of this facility is very low.

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How exactly does one go about this?

If you can inform me I can pass the information on to my fellow club members.

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Any problems - email me at the BCA membership address

graham said:

IIRC the log in information is on the club's white BCRA membership card.

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... which is generally sent to either the club Treasurer, or the Secretary, depending on who liaises with Glenn. So I'd suggest they are your first port of call.

damian said:

... which is sent to the club Treasurer,.... who liaises with Glenn. So I'd suggest they are your first port of call.

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Hmmm. That would be me then...

Glenn, I'll send you an email.

What happened to Bubbas post just after the OP?  :doubt:

Seems to have gone missing. 

I think there are enough science posts on the forum to justify a separate board i can think of at least 5 or 6 of the top of my head from recent times. Looking at my unread posts list i can see two topics which would fall nicely into a cave science category: things i have seen on my trips (troglobites updated post trip) and another topic about the new BCRA booklet on the hydrology of goyden and Manchester hole.
I think that the main value of this forum is that it has a very wide variety of cavers with different areas of interest, different perspectives and different ideas as such it represents a potentially very powerfull tool for getting information out and pulling interested people into cave science due largely to its accessability.
and again referring to my original post we(BCRA/CHECC) would really like to see more students taking on cave science dissertations and having a separate bored providing a really obvious place for people to ask questions about cave science and which those who may be able to provide support for projects can easily keep an eye on would be very usefull. essentially cave science needs to be more aproachable and this would provide quite a good bridge between keeping a thought or idea to yourself never discussing it and then forgetting about it and nothing ever happening and actualy having the confidence to send an email to the BCRA saying ear i'v had this thought right....
i cant believe there would be that much work involved in setting it up.