Responsible cavers

cap n chris

Well-known member
Can anyone help define what a Responsible Caver is, please.

What would the Bona Fides of an RC be?
How would anyone else be able to check on the BFs of an RC?
Who would be the judge of the RC status?
Would it be ongoing, i.e. subject to updating/ongoing assessment?

My guess is that as a minimum they'd need to be insured, experienced, conservation-inducted/proven, possibly subject to peer review and well known as an RC amongst a wider community and registered on an openly accessible database so landowners could independently verify someone was a pukka RC, rather than a liar.

 

mikem

Well-known member
Surely a responsible caver is one who doesn't go caving, so they don't damage the underground environment...

Mike
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Nice idea! LOL!

... in which case they wouldn't be approaching a landowner asking for access? Stands to reason. ;-)

 

cavemanmike

Active member
Cap'n Chris said:
Can anyone help define what a Responsible Caver is, please.

What would the Bona Fides of an RC be?
How would anyone else be able to check on the BFs of an RC?
Who would be the judge of the RC status?
Would it be ongoing, i.e. subject to updating/ongoing assessment?

My guess is that as a minimum they'd need to be insured, experienced, conservation-inducted/proven, possibly subject to peer review and well known as an RC amongst a wider community and registered on an openly accessible database so landowners could independently verify someone was a pukka RC, rather than a liar.

different thread but it still sounds like you 've got blonde hair and blue eye's,  :eek:
and i thought the world had moved on and learnt a few things,
no wonder caving is f*****
 

mikem

Well-known member
for taking a seemingly reasonable idea to it's logical (& unreasonable) conclusion...

Mike
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
How else can conservation be improved?

You are welcome to come up with something.

PS. No, there isn't any trust anymore. Not when cavers are trashing caves (HLIS, Descent, latest edition). Bridge too far, and all that jazz.
 

Alex

Well-known member
My guess is that as a minimum they'd need to be insured, experienced, conservation-inducted/proven, possibly subject to peer review and well known as an RC amongst a wider community and registered on an openly accessible database so landowners could independently verify someone was a pukka RC, rather than a liar.


You have to be joking right!!? No one is going to register on a f**ing database just to go caving, its bad enough we are made to carry green cards to go into some caves. I don't see why I should have to prove anything to anyone. That what is called a police state. How would you prove any of that anyway?

"I am sorry sir but you cannot go caving without a licence." If you do that I think there will be a lot more pirating and a lot more damage and bad feeling all around.

 

tamarmole

Active member
The obvious solution is for the aspiring caver to take a formal course of desk based instruction before being allowed underground.  Only when they have passed the written examinations and vive voce should they be allowed to apply for a provisional cavers licence.  This would allow the provisional caver to apply to an instructor for a course of above ground training sessions.  Having successfully passed this stage........

I think I may just have lost the will to live.

 

Alex

Well-known member
Yes me too... I think I will go for another run, don't need a licence for that yet...
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Alex said:
"I am sorry sir but you cannot go caving without a licence." If you do that I think there will be a lot more pirating and a lot more damage and bad feeling all around.

But would those be the actions of a "responsible caver"? I don't have a view either way on what Chris says, by the way. The thing about how we do things in this country is we get by with woolly definitions - trying to pin exactitude down is nigh on impossible.
 

Madness

New member
I'd argue that their is still trust between landowners and cavers. There are many caves/mines in the Peak where the land owner, without knowing anything about me, allows me onto and into his land. I respect his trust and treat the land and cave as if it were my own.

With regard to conservation would it not be better to educate rather than regulate? Outdoor Pursuits are intrinsically about freedom. It would be a bad thing if we had to officially qualify as 'responsible' before being allowed to go caving.
 

ZombieCake

Well-known member
Can anyone help define what a Responsible Caver is, please.
Be careful what you wish for ....  I can see a government quango regulatory organisation materialising "OffCave" if you like, if it isn't already in train, if it's perceived that caving can't regulate itself  :eek:
All trips will have to be undertaken by licenced cavers and accompanied by an approved person who is subject to constant surveillance by CCTV, audio, etc. and each trip evaluated by government to continually assess the suitability for all those on a trip to continue to be allowed to undertake trips.  Not a million miles away in principle from 'black boxes' on a car to 'prove' you're a good driver.
Scary or what?
 

Aubrey

Member
tamarmole said:
The obvious solution is for the aspiring caver to take a formal course of desk based instruction before being allowed underground.  Only when they have passed the written examinations and vive voce should they be allowed to apply for a provisional cavers licence.  This would allow the provisional caver to apply to an instructor for a course of above ground training sessions.  Having successfully passed this stage........

Ah! You forgot to mention how much the examiners and pen pushers would charge to make you a RC (To say nothing about the bribes you would have to pay or beer you would have to buy if you belonged to the wrong club or were on the wrong side of the CRoW argument ).
 

Kenilworth

New member
I can't tell if you're serious.

When I was first beginning to survey caves I wrote a letter to one of the most respected and well-know cavers in the US (I was at that time unaware of his status). I asked him, in my ignorance, what I could do to become a responsible caver and thus gain the trust of landowners. I wanted access badly, see. He said, "The way to be a responsible caver (whatever that is) is to use good sense and be good to people."

That's about as good a definition as you'll get, and there is no possible vetting process.

 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
I'm glad I'm not the only caver thinking "Thin end, big ugly wedge".

Although I often disagree with what "Madness" posts I think his contribution above is spot on.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Alex said:
You have to be joking right!!? No one is going to register on a f**ing database just to go caving, its bad enough we are made to carry green cards to go into some caves. I don't see why I should have to prove anything to anyone. That what is called a police state. How would you prove any of that anyway?

Thousands of UK cavers are already registered on a database.

And actually, no, it's not a joke. It's a serious point. And this thread isn't my idea - I'm just trying to find out more about the proposal and how it is supposed to work.

If access is to be granted as freely as possible for all Responsible Cavers then the obvious question is how can a landowner ascertain whether someone wishing to visit a cave in their ownership is an RC?

Cavers know most other cavers so presumably peer-review would be one method, but the landowner would need to find out, hence an online database listing registered RCs to which they can readily refer. A landowner might know some cavers personally but visiting ones from other regions would be strangers to all effects and purposes. How, then, can the landowner grant access to the right people?

BCA will already have a database of all members: being a member does not mean that someone is responsible because any Tom, Dick or Harry can gain a green card simply by coughing up the moolah; however, if a BCA member had completed some kind of conservation induction then a tick could be put on the BCA register and landowners could check on their phones for the person's name.

Alternative suggestions are welcome. Kindly tell us how someone could be provably defined as a Responsible Caver. It would be helpful to know.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Madness said:
I'd argue that their is still trust between landowners and cavers.

There is an example locally that could easily disprove that; trust between landowner(s) and some cavers, yes, but not trust between landowner(s) and cavers generally. No. 
 
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