Video: rigging

cap n chris

Well-known member
The increase in personal video logging of caving trips is starting to highlight disturbingly bad rigging posted on sites such as YouTube; if that's not bad enough it would also appear that people doing the rigging are the knowledgeable* ones who are taking other people under their wing(s), presumably passing on potentially lethal training examples.

Obviously none of us are our brothers' keepers and it's a free country and people can do what they like but it wouldn't seem unreasonably melodramatic to suggest it's a minor miracle more cavers aren't killing themselves on rope. Some of the stuff viewable online is enough to make your hair stand on end (and I haven't even got any).

Would it be fair to suggest that training, and insistence thereon, is failing at club level? Do It Yourself Brain Surgery springs to mind.

PS I'm happy to provide rigging training. Only need to be asked. No-one's askin' though.

* Irony intended.
 
Or would it be fair to suggest...given that many (if not all) of us can be guilty of poor rigging practice on occasion...

That SRT rigging is generally more forgiving of the occasional mistake than we think?

There are very few...if not no...accidents that are caused by slack in approach lines, poorly dressed knots, clipping a cowstail to a bolt instead of the knot...etc etc

So maybe we should all just chill ;)
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Perhaps fair comment and "there but for the grace etc.".... But.. on the other hand perhaps a reason no-one's broken their back recently falling onto shonky rigging is because no-one's slipped for a while. But when they do....

Another fair comment might be along the lines of "given the ease with which tutorials (online, printed, verbal, visual) can be accessed, free of charge and at the press of a button in many instances", plus training available on demand (subsidised by various sources, if need be) why are people taking risks with their lives, and, even more importantly, the lives of people who are trusting them?

Accidents happen; they can be less dire, or resolved without upset, if the safety systems are rigged in accordance with safe practice. However, if no-one's bothered two hoots by the safety systems being up to par then why not just do caving parkour? (many do this, but that's their informed choice, but I'm guessing it's not the choice of people who are trusting their leader(s)).

I'm chilled.
 

andrew

Member
Be careful not to demonise practices totally. Eg clipping to anchors.

There are times an technical when this is safer than clipping to the anchor, plus clipping to rope can have the same failure mechanism. It is the knowledge of what and when things are appropriate and what causes failure that is important.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Agree fully when there is a reason (i.e. underpinning knowledge being applied to a particular situation) rather than them being done in no particular way because there is very little idea about what to do, or how to achieve it.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
Cap'n Chris said:
jasonbirder said:
clipping a cowstail to a bolt
You need to read this*:
http://welshrandomadventures.blogspot.co.uk/

Hence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfZDNbPfCH0&list=UU1vxW4W52BkwV5OybJ-6gbg

* Many thanks to Jules for putting this online; it could save lives.

From the article and the video most people would not have a clue what the problem is. The article is far too long for most people to bother reading and it doesn't properly explain the unclipping problem. The video is fuzzy and has no sound so provides very little information. Sorry Chris.

This is a bit better at demonstrating where danger lies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrlKLS9eK28

and this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oke_4xJTtM

I think there are plenty more videos out there.

The best solution is to adhere to the rule of keeping at least two points of attachment.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
I agree with you Chris.
There will always be the argument of 'it's been fine up until now, why change things?'.
Frankly, that's rubbish. How many cavers head out in flat cap, wool jumper and sporting a tallow candle?

I've had to have awkward conversations a few times (more so since the BCA now mandate their Instructors to intervene verbally if they see poor practice). I have always offered free training in this case. Never been taken up on it.
It has been a plan of mine for some time to produce some really simple but to the point video/PDF guides to safe rigging principals.

Garland's Pot in Giants Hole has to be the mecca for terrifying rigging and I do expect to see accidents there.

I suspect that the safety margins in modern kit accommodate this kind of poor rigging and would still give the victim a good change of walking away. That does not mean for one minute that I plan on rigging anything at less that 100% of my best ability and judgement for safety and I would not hope to see anyone else doing so either. Rig properly!

The offers of help (sometime even free) are there people - take them!
 
Forgive the ignorance, but when I am de-rigging I often clip bolts. Classic example being Lancaster Hole from yesterday; if I am stood just below the concrete rings de-rigging the y hang, I usually have my hand jammer on the rope above, usually my croll as well, and I have my long clipped into a bolt.

Is this something I need to not do?????

I think my club is pretty good at teaching the basics of SRT (our secretary has an SRT wall on the side of his house!) and I think we do a pretty good job of mentoring newer people as they do more SRT.  But rigging is something that is generally picked up as you go and if you volunteer to de-rig etc. Maybe not as structured.

Anyways, I am taking advantage of a DCA rigging and rescue course next weekend (bargain price!) so will hopefully learn something new.
 

tras2

New member
I'm always up for improving my technique and welcome input from my club as well as the wider community.

I work in the IT field, and I'm always thinking about resiliency and a good layered approach to things.  While my own skill and technique should be the primary method of safety, if kit can provide additional protection I'm all for it (especially if it gives me an excuse to buy shinny stuff!  ;))

I watched the link posted by Cap'n Chris :-

Cap'n Chris said:

The crab he's using appears to be this:-
http://www.v12outdoor.com/product.php/6832/grivel-mega-twin-gate-self-locking-carabiner

Has anyone here used one, and can anyone see any downsides to it?
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Thanks Leclused! :)

The thread you link to contains this apt quote:

"Working it out as you go along" isn't really a good approach to roped caving (understatement) and it creates a whole subset of questions

Which sounds familiar....

MJenkinson said:
But rigging is something that is generally picked up as you go and if you volunteer to de-rig etc. Maybe not as structured.

Being able to do SRT means the following three things:
Progression
Rigging
Rescue

If you can't do those, you can't do SRT.
 

Bottlebank

New member
Cap'n Chris said:
Thanks Leclused! :)

The thread you link to contains this apt quote:

"Working it out as you go along" isn't really a good approach to roped caving (understatement) and it creates a whole subset of questions

Which sounds familiar....

MJenkinson said:
But rigging is something that is generally picked up as you go and if you volunteer to de-rig etc. Maybe not as structured.

Being able to do SRT means the following three things:
Progression
Rigging
Rescue

If you can't do those, you can't do SRT.

Progression? Do you mean going up and down? If so I'm OK, if not maybe I need a course?
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
There's a lot of technically imperfect rigging and techniques to be seen underground.  Often seen at Swildons Twenty are minor infringements like rigging off single bolts and Italian Hitch belaying off belts.  Personally I don't comment or intervene for this sort of thing - the P bolts aren't likely to fail, and the belay system, although messy, will still work.  I think it's important that the instructing fraternity don't come over as superior or judgemental and I save my interventions for things that are more serious.

It would help if Chris could give some examples of 'disturbingly bad rigging' - maybe suggest a few scenarios to provoke discussion about the intervention threshold....
 

jdduncan

New member
tras2 said:
I'm always up for improving my technique and welcome input from my club as well as the wider community.

I work in the IT field, and I'm always thinking about resiliency and a good layered approach to things.  While my own skill and technique should be the primary method of safety, if kit can provide additional protection I'm all for it (especially if it gives me an excuse to buy shinny stuff!  ;))

I watched the link posted by Cap'n Chris :-

Cap'n Chris said:

The crab he's using appears to be this:-
http://www.v12outdoor.com/product.php/6832/grivel-mega-twin-gate-self-locking-carabiner

Has anyone here used one, and can anyone see any downsides to it?

I found the gate(s) on the mega variety are a bit fiddly and I wouldn't use it underground.  The sigma model with the wire outer gate seems a bit better suited.  I've used one on my last few trips and find it to be, somewhat predictably, faffier than a snapgate but quicker than a screwgate.  I'd recommend it for a long cowstail.
 

Bottlebank

New member
Andy Sparrow said:
There's a lot of technically imperfect rigging and techniques to be seen underground.  Often seen at Swildons Twenty are minor infringements like rigging off single bolts and Italian Hitch belaying off belts.  Personally I don't comment or intervene for this sort of thing - the P bolts aren't likely to fail, and the belay system, although messy, will still work.  I think it's important that the instructing fraternity don't come over as superior or judgemental and I save my interventions for things that are more serious.

It would help if Chris could give some examples of 'disturbingly bad rigging' - maybe suggest a few scenarios to provoke discussion about the intervention threshold....

Not sure if you'll be able to see this but this one was doing the rounds a little while back and is possibly the sort of thing Chris had in mind, probably not lethal but not ideal?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152527038362595&set=gm.10152502371146394&type=1&theater
 

Simon Wilson

New member
tras2 said:
I'm always up for improving my technique and welcome input from my club as well as the wider community.

I work in the IT field, and I'm always thinking about resiliency and a good layered approach to things.  While my own skill and technique should be the primary method of safety, if kit can provide additional protection I'm all for it (especially if it gives me an excuse to buy shinny stuff!  ;))

I watched the link posted by Cap'n Chris :-

Cap'n Chris said:

The crab he's using appears to be this:-
http://www.v12outdoor.com/product.php/6832/grivel-mega-twin-gate-self-locking-carabiner

Has anyone here used one, and can anyone see any downsides to it?

Aha!! that's what it is. I didn't have clue what it was from the first fuzzy video.

I wonder how long Stevie Haston spent practicing his slight of hand before making the video. Try doing that when you're worn out, freezing cold and carrying a heavy bag on a strenuous traverse.
 


Chris,  I wondered how you were getting on with the new crab as you have had it a while now?

I asked a Mountain Leader in the Dachstien if he had seen or used one and yes he had tried one out in summer & winter conditions and found it 'fiddly'.  He also thought that it was a bit of a liability as he was concerned that if some ice or grit got in the outer gate hinge stopping it from closing, then it would fail/come off very easily.

Is anyone else using them? What do you think?
 

ALEXW

Member
My own observations from having been involved in several sports that are perceived to be dangerous (caving, paragliding, skiing, scuba diving) are that there are three stages in the ?safety? life of participants.
Stage 1, limited skill set and limited confidence. Participants don?t know what they are doing but are very aware of situation that they are in and try their hardest to be safe. These people can get into a mess, but natural caution means they are unlikely to come to any real harm.
Stage two, technically competent and reasonably confident. They do know what they should do and do it. These people should be safe in most situations.
Stage three, technically competent but over confident, when things go wrong these people are likely to become statistics.
I?m probably somewhere between one and two. Several times I have been fumbling about at a pitch head when teams of ?stage three? cavers have asked to pass me. They lean over pitches with no safety lines, rig neatly and quickly but then descend without testing.
Training is given to get people quickly to the start of stage two, but what can be done to prevent the entry to stage three?
I don?t know if there are any figures to back up my observations.
 
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