Yesterday Whilst taking some groups of Explorer Scouts around Burrington we came across the Bigest bunch of Tossers  that I've ever seen in Goatchurch. My mates were at the top of the coffin slab when they met a Group of four Adults & four Kids average age of Seven wearing NO HELMETS & carrying only hand torches. My Mates tried to explain that "maybe they shouldn't go any further" To which they totally ignored them & carried on down.
Alan & Chris decided to Exit with their Party, once at the Tradesmens they took the Helmet & Lights from the Explorers & sent them back to the Car park to meet up with Me & John to get more Helmets Etc.
When they caught up with Me we had just got back from Rods Pot & were finished for the Day,once told what was happening in Goatchurch John & Me headed up. As I arrived at the Entrance Alan & Chris told me that they had Safely brought them out the Main Entrance. By now i was fuming
As the Kids exited they commented "Dad they are wearing Wellies you told us Trainers were better" his reply was "I didn't think they would have enough Grip"
Once the Kids were out of the way I let rip I told them "in 28 years Caving they were the most Stupid People I had ever seen,that not only did they not have Helmets but not proper lights" to which one of the females told me "that her Husband knew the Cave extremely well & had 20 years of caving experience" By now I came Very close to knocking him out :spank:She also said "that after Alan had given her a Helmet that she kept hitting her Head as it gave her a false sense of security" Her Husband the complete Tosser then tried to justify the fact that the Kids could fall over anywhere !
To which I told him" In which case it wouldn't matter as he wouldn't have to call out Cave Rescue, I said that he wouldn't go out to sea & tell his Kids to swim to shore knowing that the Life boats would come out ! " & that Cave Rescue was the Same " He seemed to agree but they still thought I was going over the Top. as he did have 20 years Caving behind him. So I asked him didn't he ever wear a Helmet in 20 Years"  I told them to seriously to concider getting in touch with someone to take their Kids underground  :read:
At this point I left before I knocked him out :chair:
Alan then told him that "didn't they think it's strange that we had more concern for their Kids than they did" 
Once in the Car Park Alan & Chris told me that they had overheard them in the Cave saying that they had been to the end of the Bunny Run & at the end thought it had collapsed because it didn't go any further ! & One of the Women saying "that they were only meant to be in an Hour & that they were already 2 1/2hrs in"  Obviously No call out & properly No one knew they were in there anyway. They then sheepishly walked past us into the Restaurant's Car park Hopefully never to be seen again :doubt:
thanks to Alan,Chris & John for calming me down enough & getting them out Safely

Paulf, you may (or may not) be surprised to hear that your experience isn't rare. It's amazing what you see underground sometimes (often weekly!).

I know of an instance when Swildon's was in full flood and a man and woman were beyond the 20' in Swildon's with two young children; all were wearing jeans and t-shirts (in November), no helmets, trainers and had hand-held torches (god only knows how they climbed down the in-situ ladder - must have held the torches in their mouths?!!) - they were belayed down with a tow rope, apparently. They were rescued by a colleague of mine who was fuming about it for days afterwards.

No it doesn't suprise me it's more their attitude & the fact their to thick to listen

I remember an occasion in Eglws Faen many years ago when about 12 hung over people clad in surface gear were caught by some proper cavers.  The twelve in question had just one cigarette lighter between them for light.  The proper cavers of course did a very good job of telling off the 12 rogues.

What the proper cavers didn't know was that the rogue 12 included the cream of the Northern Section of the Cave Diving Group and any one of these probably had vastly more caving experience than the whole group of "proper" cavers put together.  It made a "fun" trip immensely funnier!

I do think that if you take children into a cave you should make sure they have helmets, and it is wise to make sure that someone on the outside world knows where you are and what to do if you don't come back, but otherwise I do not see any problem with what they are doing. I am all for people using their initiative and exploring. There is not enough of that in this day and age.

A number of French caves that I have visited in past few years ban the use of helmets on the grounds that (in their eyes) their (engraved or painted) ceilings are more valuable than my head and it is imcumbent on me not to accidentally cause any damge (to either ceiling or head).

I refer you to 'Caving for Beginners' published by the Council of Southern Caving Clubs in 1974 and this quote from page 10 which advises on the equipment required for Goatchurch Cavern...

"It is considered important not to succumb to the temptation of issuing helmets and lights... ...this standard of caving is safe without such sophisticated equipment"

Anne said:

I do think that if you take children into a cave you should make sure they have helmets, and it is wise to make sure that someone on the outside world knows where you are and what to do if you don't come back, but otherwise I do not see any problem with what they are doing. I am all for people using their initiative and exploring. There is not enough of that in this day and age.

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Great to hear

If I had been one of those kids, id have thought it was one of my best and exciting days out. As I child I loved exploring, sometimes it was a cliff face on the beach (with no helmet) sometimes it was off on my push bike for miles and miles...(with no helmet) sometimes it was swimming in a river with no responsible adults....

I know its never "an ideal" situation but sometimes we have to make do with the limited knowledge or funding or equipment that we have available to us at the particular time.
Its that or sit in a watch tv all day...

8 people that day also got to see that there are other ways of doing it, it seemed one of the youngsters even questioned his/her fathers decision about trainers,(how cool is that)
........the next move is down to them

Andy Sparrow said:

I refer you to 'Caving for Beginners' published by the Council of Southern Caving Clubs in 1974 and this quote from page 10 which advises on the equipment required for Goatchurch Cavern...

"It is considered important not to succumb to the temptation of issuing helmets and lights... ...this standard of caving is safe without such sophisticated equipment"

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However, it could be argued that the 1974 advice has been overtaken by that issued by the NCA (as was). To quote from their Guidelines for University and College caving Clubs:

Appropriate clothing is essential, especially in wet caves, all party members should ensure that they are adequately dressed for the proposed trip. When deep water is to be negotiated by wading or swimming appropriate clothing should be worn to reflect this. Drowning is not an uncommon form of death in caves and buoyancy aids may need to be worn. Some types of clothing hold large amounts of water making movement difficult. Party leaders should always consider whether the less experienced are appropriately dressed; jeans, tee shirts and trainers are never suitable clothing under any conditions. Each party member should have a suitable helmet, and lighting which leaves both hands free.

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My own opinion is that the helmet is the least essential part of that kit and that "hands free" lighting and suitable footwear are far more important.

Andy Sparrow said:

I refer you to 'Caving for Beginners' published by the Council of Southern Caving Clubs in 1974 and this quote from page 10 which advises on the equipment required for Goatchurch Cavern...

"It is considered important not to succumb to the temptation of issuing helmets and lights... ...this standard of caving is safe without such sophisticated equipment"

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Surely it wouldn't be much fun without lights? Am I reading this right?

May I humbly point out that 1974 was 33 years ago - people were expendable and caving gear was rare and expensive.

At the Hunters on Saturday I chatted with Paulf and the group that found these explorers in Goatchurch. I think Paul's sense of outrage stems not from the foolish attitude of this group, as he saw it, but from their sheer arrogance and contempt at Paul's attempts to help and offer advice. Paul is not someone who rubs people up the wrong way, so if someone doesn't listen to what he has to tell them, my judgement is that it is not through lack of trying on Paul's part.

Whilst I agree that caving with such attire isn't ideal, if I'd have been given this sort of attitude (no matter how well meant):

I told them "in 28 years Caving they were the most Stupid People I had ever seen,that not only did they not have Helmets but not proper lights" to which one of the females told me "that her Husband knew the Cave extremely well & had 20 years of caving experience" By now I came Very close to knocking him out

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...then I'd have told him to go f*** himself.

I know somebody who did Goatchurch with 2 candles btw

bubba said:

Whilst I agree that caving with such attire isn't ideal, if I'd have been given this sort of attitude (no matter how well meant):

I told them "in 28 years Caving they were the most Stupid People I had ever seen,that not only did they not have Helmets but not proper lights" to which one of the females told me "that her Husband knew the Cave extremely well & had 20 years of caving experience" By now I came Very close to knocking him out

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...then I'd have told him to go f*** himself.

I know somebody who did Goatchurch with 2 candles btw

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Always good to have a backup light source.

Ohhhh so its ok for 'cavers' to do goatchurch in fancy dress and candles....

Just mull on that little bit of double-standards for a moment....

Trainers - better then walking boots, just as good as wellys for the likes of goatchurch.
Proper lights - what like an FX3?? Yeah how many people do you know started caving with a proper light???? As long as they had one each thats an acceptable minimum if you don't know any better...
No helmets for the KIDs - OK now this is stupid the guys an idiot and should know better.
Adults without helmets - Fine, a choice by an adult who again should know better.

I hope these people are NOT put off by this encounter and think, "hey that was fun", and start learning more about the proper kit. Educate people don't scare them away....

bubba said:

Whilst I agree that caving with such attire isn't ideal, if I'd have been given this sort of attitude (no matter how well meant):

I told them "in 28 years Caving they were the most Stupid People I had ever seen,that not only did they not have Helmets but not proper lights" to which one of the females told me "that her Husband knew the Cave extremely well & had 20 years of caving experience" By now I came Very close to knocking him out

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...then I'd have told him to go f*** himself.

I know somebody who did Goatchurch with 2 candles btw

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Someone with "20 years caving experience" taking children underground in the way Paul describes cannot have been doing so out of ignorance. This appears to be a concious decision and perhaps they deserved all the criticism Paul's group threw at them. Don't have a go at responsible cavers trying to do something good for a change. Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like Paul and his mates don't normally do good things.  :-[

I don't think nearly hitting somebody for not wearing a helmet is very responsible at all.

A responsible person resists the temptation to hit someone. Don't tell me you don't get the urge to do stupid things? I imagine you are intelligent enough to control such urges.

Sometimes its better not to resist - Some people NEED a good thumpin....

c**tplaces said:

Sometimes its better not to resist - Some people NEED a good thumpin....

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Maybe your thing should read "Putting the mental back into fundamentalism"  :tease: