Proposal for BCA to officially declare caves non-smoking

cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
In line with UK-wide legislation in July declaring all public enclosed spaces as non-smoking areas, has the time come for UK NGB/RCCs to adopt a similar stance? - caves which are locked systems could reasonably be exempted on the grounds that they do not fit with the spirit of a "public enclosed space" whereas obvious open sites such as Goatchurch, PYO, Long Churn etc. would be subject to such a requirement.
 
C

cave junky

New member
Was thinking about this the other day. Personally I think it is a good idea, but there is no way of enforcing it is there? Should be an interesting debate anyway.
Ally
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
I imagine it would be enforceable depending on how many of you there are in your group. No, seriously; you would be able to state that smoking was out of order and that the person should stop immediately etc.. - see other (long winded) thread on this topic.
 
bru

bru

New member
Although I am a smoker I am in favour of caves being non smoking areas.  Cigarette butts take ages to degrade if left in a cave and they grow that funny white mould too.  Plus i need all the oxygen i can get when caving <wheeze>
 
JB

JB

Member
I can see why you'd want to do this if you really hate tobacco smoke but personally I like the fact that underground we just get on with caving and don't have to worry too much about rules and legislation. I reckon legislation underground like this is a worse evil than tobacco smoke and I don't smoke either!
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Peter Burgess said:
Is the owner obliged to put a sign at the entrance if this is the case? Like churches?
Click to expand...

Red Herring, surely, Peter? - extend the logic....  What about signs saying "Please don't murder anyone while underground"?
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
IIRC signage is a requirement of workplaces (the Church being onesuch, e.g. clergy) and wouldn't extend to natural caves; showcaves, however, are required to place no smoking signs at the entrance(s), according to a brief conversation I've had. So, at least we know that the legislation affects some caves - it merely remains to be seen whether it extends to all caves (I imagine there will be exceptions).
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Probably; yep. Does the existence of professional Scuba divers make the deep ocean falling within UK legal territory subject to HSE regs? (I expect it does, actually). I guess that the sky is also covered since professional sky divers work while falling amid the clouds.... 

And before a numpty states the blinkin' obvious, I'm not on about smoking underwater or while skydiving; I'm merely following Peter's logic re HSE/workplaces.
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
cap 'n chris said:
Probably; yep. Does the existence of professional Scuba divers make the deep ocean falling within UK legal territory subject to HSE regs? (I expect it does, actually). I guess that the sky is also covered since professional sky divers work while falling amid the clouds.... 

And before a numpty states the blinkin' obvious, I'm not on about smoking underwater or while skydiving; I'm merely following Peter's logic re HSE/workplaces.
Click to expand...

Not my logic, more like the sort of logic a non-caver would apply, never having been in a real wild cave. And it is most certainly true for mines - those taking paying public on trips into mines are most definitely covered by HSE regulations, and such sites (or at least the routes taken) should be and are subject to inspection by a qualified mines inspector.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
:unsure:

Sorry, Peter; however, I don't believe that a proposal to establish no smoking as a legal, ethical or good manners best practice in UK wild caves would result in the prerequisite for cave entrances to have signs put up!
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
cap 'n chris said:
:unsure:

Sorry, Peter; however, I don't believe that a proposal to establish no smoking as a legal, ethical or good manners best practice in UK wild caves would result in the prerequisite for cave entrances to have signs put up!
Click to expand...

That's OK, you don't have to apologise. Not to me anyway.
 
E

emgee

Guest
cap 'n chris said:
In line with UK-wide legislation in July declaring all public enclosed spaces as non-smoking areas, has the time come for UK NGB/RCCs to adopt a similar stance? - caves which are locked systems could reasonably be exempted on the grounds that they do not fit with the spirit of a "public enclosed space" whereas obvious open sites such as Goatchurch, PYO, Long Churn etc. would be subject to such a requirement.
Click to expand...

Of course then if someone smokes in a cave and the owner fails to prevent it they can be fined. Sounds like a good way to get access withdrawn.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Well perhaps if children can't play nicely then they shouldn't be allowed to have any toys? ... kidding! Access withdrawn? - how?
 
Hughie

Hughie

Active member
cap 'n chris said:
Peter Burgess said:
Is the owner obliged to put a sign at the entrance if this is the case? Like churches?
Click to expand...

Red Herring, surely, Peter? - extend the logic....  What about signs saying "Please don't murder anyone while underground"?
Click to expand...

I believe you do if it's a place of work and an enclosed place.
 
W

Walrus

Guest
Supposing the ban does apply to caves, who would legally (not socially or morally) enforce it? As I understand it, people who smoke in such places are supposed to be fined £50 by the owner; if the owner doesn't enforce the ban they will be fined £1,500 per offence. Would a group be expected to inform on the offender in their group - and to whom? The club they belong to (if any) or the cave owner? And who would enforce such a ban if no-one in a group owns up to smoking in a cave?
 
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