Is caving a suitable activity for children?

Is caving a suitable activity for children under 14?

  • yes

    Votes: 65 97.0%
  • no

    Votes: 2 3.0%

  • Total voters
    67

Andy Sparrow

Active member
Caving clubs will have recently received child protection policy guidance notes with an accompanying letter from David Judson.  The letter says that in a recent communication with the government the BCA have stated that 'we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children"'  The letter goes on to say, in effect, that this only applies to children under 14.

So is this now a policy by our governing body, that caving is unsuitable for children under 14?  Such a statement will come as a surprise to instructors like myself who deal mainly with children under 14 and who have, until now, been under the illusion that we were providing a worthwhile and valuable experience which is thoroughly enjoyed by the vast majority of our younger participants.  It may also be alarming for many scout leaders to realise that one of the most popular activities they regularly arrange for the enjoyment of their younger members is actually unsuitable for children.  It may also surprise those of you with families that any caving you have enjoyed with your own children was actually an unsuitable activity for them.
Need I go on?

It strikes me that this is an example of disconnected thinking in our governing body to rival the notorious debacle of the minimum impact code, which some of you will remember, from a few years past.
 

whitelackington

New member
I took my daughter caving from age 4, she also occasionally went digging,
she always especially enjoyed it if another child accompanied us
She has turned into an excellent young woman.
If children enjoy it and it helps build their character,
why not?
 
C

Clive G

Guest
Andy Sparrow said:
Caving clubs will have recently received child protection policy guidance notes with an accompanying letter from David Judson.  The letter says that in a recent communication with the government the BCA have stated that 'we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children"'

I see that this topic is headed with a poll concerning young people going caving. Surely, any representative national body would carry out a survey on such an important issue to find out what people think, before making pronouncements to government departments, which could end up having a profound effect for the future of caving: especially in the realm of scouting, schools and youth clubs?

If you accept the approach which Andy has described to us, whatever comes next? Pronouncements about which caves are covered by insurance and which are not - through 'suitability for safe entry' decided by some specially chosen elite or an insurance company?

I put it to you that there are stabbings and killings going on as a result of inner city gang-led power struggles and the more that adventure activities are put out of the way of young people, then the more young people are going to get their excitement and release of energy from criminal acts, destruction and devastating other people's lives. A responsible approach to the current state which society has reached would be to promote learning creative teamwork among young people - especially in the realm of aspiring to attain challenging objectives - where individuals discover, in company with their contemporaries, how to overcome difficult and potentially hazardous obstacles.

So, I suggest bringing into being adventure clubs for young people (of all ages), where caving is one of the promoted activities.

You can't whittle this subject down to a simple 'yes' or 'no' poll. Young people need to be instructed and guided properly. The correct ratio of experienced cavers to novices needs to be determined through experience, making a case-by-case assessment, depending on the nature of the obstacles and difficulties to be attempted - rather than on any arbitrary rule of thumb or blanket ban. The latter might appear to free up members of the so-called 'governing body' from having any responsibility for young people going caving, but actually makes them culpable as part of the wider problem we are currently facing in society as a whole, especially when the opinion they promote is not based on common consensus. All part of the 'do what we tell you because we know best' philosophy, which went out of fashion around the end of WW2.

As someone with experience working with young people in both the army and scouting it would be very good to hear Ian James' opinion on all this. There has been a recent call for the reinstatement of national conscription to solve the problem - but would it?
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
Clive G said:
You can't whittle this subject down to a simple 'yes' or 'no' poll.

I think you can if you want to send a simple feedback message to BCA about the degree of support this policy has from the average caver.

I dread to think of the implications of this next time there is any sort of incident involving children and the media delve deep enough enough to find and use this national governing body statement to pillory some centre, organisation or instructor.    Effectively the BCA has just stabbed their own body of qualified leaders and instructors in the back.
 

Cookie

New member
Andy Sparrow said:
Caving clubs will have recently received child protection policy guidance notes with an accompanying letter from David Judson.  The letter says that in a recent communication with the government the BCA have stated that 'we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children"'   The letter goes on to say, in effect, that this only applies to children under 14.

I haven't got the letter in front of me but I think you have taken this entirely out of context.

The context is that our Legal & Insurance Officer was asked to produce a Child Protection Policy that could be readily adopted by our member clubs. Several clubs had asked for help with this trick legal area.

The statement is from the perspective of club caving, not all caving (eg instructor lead).

The first question that any club wants answered is what is the youngest age that we can accept as a member without incurring unreasonable legal responsibilities. The L&I Officer is saying that age is 14, which is 2 if not 4 years lower than most people would think.

To quote part of a submission from the L&I Officer to National Council. I presume the letter you received is similar.
Bearing in mind 2 and 3 above, it is my considered opinion that we should not be encouraging ?children? into caving. If caving parents wish to take their children caving (as a caving club activity or otherwise) then that is fine and we should support this, but we should not support it as a mainstream club activity.

In context I think the statement makes much more sense.

Would you recommend a 10 year old or 12 year old join a caving club? You have to draw the line somewhere. Where would you draw it?



 

pete h

New member
I think that children of all ages should be encouraged to go caving, individual Wessex members have taken there children for many years, last weekend at the mad hatters tea party in the water chamber in Swildons the youngest was 3 years old.
Long may it continue with out age restrictions  they are the future of all clubs.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Any child of any age should be allowed to join a caving club, provided that (if they are under 14)  their parent/guardian is already a member.

Caving suitable for children? Yes.

Children suitable for caving? Yes.
 
C

Clive G

Guest
Cookie said:
To quote part of a submission from the L&I Officer to National Council. I presume the letter you received is similar.
Bearing in mind 2 and 3 above, it is my considered opinion that we should not be encouraging ?children? into caving. If caving parents wish to take their children caving (as a caving club activity or otherwise) then that is fine and we should support this, but we should not support it as a mainstream club activity.

In context I think the statement makes much more sense.

The sense this makes to me is that the advice being given is "we should not be encouraging "children" into caving." It doesn't matter whether the context is purely within clubs or wider afield, the sentiment is unequivocal.

People are so busy creating unnecessary 'legal minefields' for the law abiding that criminals, who don't give a damn, are having a field day.

I agree with Andy that a message needs to be sent showing support for allowing children to discover the adventure of caving, but in order to agree that children should be enabled to go caving you also have to have a safe code of practice in place - providing a responsible framework within which a potentially dangerous activity can be tackled as safely as possible. There are risks associated with caving and they have to be voluntarily accepted. In the case of children the responsibility for agreeing to minors participating in the activity lies with the parents or legal guardians. Caving clubs usually admit members once they are satisfied as to their competence in the caving environment. Need any more be 'legislated'?
 

stealth

New member
most certainly is,  I wouldnt hestitate at as long as you work within the limits of the child(ren).Im looking forward to take my grandchild for his first trip, as soon as he is old enough.
 

Cookie

New member
cap 'n chris said:
Any child of any age should be allowed to join a caving club, provided that (if they are under 14)  their parent/guardian is already a member.

Would you also add "and so long as the child only caves with their parent" or could the child turn-up and cave with any members of the club as they wish?

Children of club members is a special case. The advice is for all children with or without parents in tow.

I think that children of all ages should be encouraged to go caving, individual Wessex members have taken there children for many years, last weekend at the mad hatters tea party in the water chamber in Swildons the youngest was 3 years old.
Long may it continue with out age restrictions  they are the future of all clubs.

None of those children caved as members of the Wessex. That is because we have an age restriction on membership of 16.

To repeat my question would you recommend a 10 year old or 12 year old join a caving club? You have to draw the line somewhere. Where would you draw it? (With or without a parent member)
 

graham

New member
i have to admit to not reading the letter closely. As a University Club, it does not affect us as our incoming membership is over 18, anyway*. However, I do believe that Cookie is right David was not trying to put children off but was warning clubs of the pitfalls or taking on under 14s as members. None of us wish to discourage newcomers but all of us need to be cognisant of any potential problems.

Two further comments:

I once asked in the Student union here what the policy might be concerning any unusually young admissions. The straightforward answer was "we hope it doesn't happen!" As far as I am aware it never has, here.

Andy brought this matter up in context of qualified leaders and mentioned the "Minimum Impact Code". The reason why that was such a difficult debate in BCA (then NCA) circles was that the codes being formulated by the conservation group discussed small groups and relatively high novice/experienced caver ratios. This was unacceptable to the training group as they deemed that their activities would be "uneconomic" in those conditions. So that was another area in which club caving and instructed caving differed.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Cookie said:
cap 'n chris said:
Any child of any age should be allowed to join a caving club, provided that (if they are under 14)  their parent/guardian is already a member.

Would you also add "and so long as the child only caves with their parent" or could the child turn-up and cave with any members of the club as they wish?

Aha, well one logical extension of this debate is that clubs have qualified and CRB'd leaders specifically to cater for the children in the membership; this is akin to professionally instructed cavers taking childrens groups but with the leader doing so out of the kindness of their heart rather than for remuneration in order to pay for food, fuel, shelter etc.; such endeavour could undermine outdoor pursuits companies but the long-standing anti-ticket philosophy of club caving means that cold days and hell won't combine.

Clearly there is little point in children joining a caving club if their parent(s) aren't members as they wouldn't be going on many trips otherwise.
 

Speleokitty

New member
I got this stuff from BCA too. I've read it three times and I still don't understand it.

I didn't start caving until I was 8 and I've never taken anyone on a trip that was under the age of 3 (parents included). If anyone can actually explain what the multiple pages from BCA was trying to say I would be really grateful.

Kitty

 
C

Clive G

Guest
Cookie said:
To repeat my question would you recommend a 10 year old or 12 year old join a caving club? You have to draw the line somewhere. Where would you draw it? (With or without a parent member)

The problem lies in the statement "it is my considered opinion that we should not be encouraging ?children? into caving." It is quite clear in its phraseology and totally open to abuse by insurance companies, lawyers and politicians.

The proper advice to be given is that caving clubs should have a satisfactory procedure in place whenever young people go caving as part of the club's activities. Such procedure should deal with parental or guardian consent for participation in the trip, the presence of a parent, designated guardian or approved experienced leader on the trip - along with an adequate number of additional experienced cavers based on the assessed degree of difficulty presented by the obstacles to be negotiated - and the use of appropriate protective equipment.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Clive G said:
Such procedure should deal with parental or guardian consent for participation in the trip, the presence of a parent, designated guardian or approved experienced leader on the trip - along with an adequate number of additional experienced cavers based on the assessed degree of difficulty presented by the obstacles to be negotiated - and the use of appropriate protective equipment.

Sounds uncannily like my previous comment, Clive!
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
Cookie said:
Andy Sparrow said:
Caving clubs will have recently received child protection policy guidance notes with an accompanying letter from David Judson.  The letter says that in a recent communication with the government the BCA have stated that 'we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children"'  The letter goes on to say, in effect, that this only applies to children under 14.

I haven't got the letter in front of me but I think you have taken this entirely out of context.

The context is that our Legal & Insurance Officer was asked to produce a Child Protection Policy that could be readily adopted by our member clubs. Several clubs had asked for help with this trick legal area.

The statement is from the perspective of club caving, not all caving (eg instructor lead).

The first question that any club wants answered is what is the youngest age that we can accept as a member without incurring unreasonable legal responsibilities. The L&I Officer is saying that age is 14, which is 2 if not 4 years lower than most people would think.

To quote part of a submission from the L&I Officer to National Council. I presume the letter you received is similar.
Bearing in mind 2 and 3 above, it is my considered opinion that we should not be encouraging ?children? into caving. If caving parents wish to take their children caving (as a caving club activity or otherwise) then that is fine and we should support this, but we should not support it as a mainstream club activity.

In context I think the statement makes much more sense.

Would you recommend a 10 year old or 12 year old join a caving club? You have to draw the line somewhere. Where would you draw it?


Cookie,  you cannot have a statement clearer than 'we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children"'  If that is not the policy of BCA, and I hope that it isn't, we urgently need clarification of where BCA does stand on this issue.

This reeks of disconnected thinking - a lack of 'joined-up government'.  It was the same with the minimum impact code when the author went to print without thinking to consult with the Training Officer or Training Committee.  I would be be amazed if, in this case, they have been consulted and have approved the statement in question. 
 
C

Clive G

Guest
cap 'n chris said:
Sounds uncannily like my previous comment, Clive!

We could well have been writing at the same time - I don't always send the draft immediately!

For 'approved' I mean approved by the parent or guardian concerned, not necessarily a fully trained professional leader as you have mentioned. What happens if during a trip a parent has to take one of their two children participating in the trip out early? If they trust the leader of the trip to look after the remaining 'child', and there are sufficient other experienced cavers around, why insist on having a paper-qualified leader? I have seen more than one instance in club caving of at least two families getting together to take their children caving jointly.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Clive G said:
For 'approved' I mean approved by the parent or guardian concerned

How else can a parent make a balanced/sound decision about the suitability of the proposed leader other than by the potential leader showing "proof", i.e. leader training/qualification/CRB'd?
 

graham

New member
Would you let your 11 or 12 year old go out in the countryside with those weirdo paedos from the so called "caving club"? None of them have had CRB checks, you know!
 

graham

New member
cap 'n chris said:
Clive G said:
For 'approved' I mean approved by the parent or guardian concerned

How can the parent make a balanced/sound decision about the suitability of the proposed leader other than that potential leader showing "proof", i.e. being qualified/CRB'd?
Either by the fact that they had known the person well for a number of years, being members of the same caving club, for example, or by ensuring that they had undergone a CRB check.
 
Top