Hi I am an undergraduate geography student at University College London, and i am looking to carry out my dissertation research on a cave in the Peak District. I  intend to study an active cave where sediment has accumulated, annually, layer-on-layer in a cave over at least the last 100 years. I was wondering if anyone knew of a site where this is occurring, I will be carrying out chemical analysis on the sediment so it has to have annual resolution (i.e. the layers are not disturbed or mixed, so 100 years ago is at the bottom and the sediment has built up annual to present). Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

I would have thought the finding and proving of such a site would be enough of a project for an undergraduate, unless of course it has been specifically studied already. If so, a literature review should give you examples.

If you haven't already done so, here would be a good place to start looking: http://bcra.org.uk/pub/sci-index.html

most of the sites i can think of are either fossil (of unknown age) or active. so the layers may be churned up or only 10 years old, or distorted by digging spoil etc.

A mine that became disused 100 year sago may work, however i presume you're after natural cave sediment?

Geog Student said:

Hi I am an undergraduate geography student at University College London, and i am looking to carry out my dissertation research on a cave in the Peak District. I intend to study an active cave where sediment has accumulated, annually, layer-on-layer in a cave over at least the last 100 years. I was wondering if anyone knew of a site where this is occurring, I will be carrying out chemical analysis on the sediment so it has to have annual resolution (i.e. the layers are not disturbed or mixed, so 100 years ago is at the bottom and the sediment has built up annual to present). Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

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Trench Passage in Upper Flood Swallet is what you want. Nice section through the layers over 2m high. Many hundreds of layers. Its on Mendip though, not in the Peak

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more photos

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martinr said:

Geog Student said:

Hi I am an undergraduate geography student at University College London, and i am looking to carry out my dissertation research on a cave in the Peak District. I intend to study an active cave where sediment has accumulated, annually, layer-on-layer in a cave over at least the last 100 years. I was wondering if anyone knew of a site where this is occurring, I will be carrying out chemical analysis on the sediment so it has to have annual resolution (i.e. the layers are not disturbed or mixed, so 100 years ago is at the bottom and the sediment has built up annual to present). Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

Trench Passage in Upper Flood Swallet is what you want. Nice section through the layers over 2m high. Many hundreds of layers. Its on Mendip though, not in the Peak

photo

more photos

Click to expand...

Does that bit of passage still flood every year? The mud cracks on top make it look like that the last time that mud bank was underwater is more than a year ago.

OP said "had accumulated" , not "is accumulating". I agree that if the OP meant the later then Trench Passage in UFS is not what they want  :-[

One hundred years of undisturbed, accumulated sediment

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Best bet would be one of the older caving huts - shame the Eldon's behind Miller's has long gone; that would have done the trick.

Seriously - the problem is flooding and/or disturbance by cavers.

I seriously doubt that a site fitting these exact criteria, notably the "undisturbed" one can be found in a suitable location.

Varved sediments are rarely identified until they have been cut through (aka "disturbed"). Once they have been cut through, the details of deposition will change. Thus what is needed is an undisturbed (no girt welly prints) mud, silt or sand bed in an annually active stream passage, probably in an enlargement of such a passage akin to a surface lake, in the hope that the sediment beds will turn out to be varved when inspected (aka "disturbed").

I rather suspect that the only possible situations where appropriate conditions might be found in the UK will be in some of our larger sumps, but in such conditions it is unlikely that the sediment will be laid down in guaranteed annual layers as opposed to "randomly timed flood event" layers. Pitlamp might be able to identify possible sites, if anyone can.

Now, it is possible that varved deposits dating back to, say, the end of the ice ages might be identified and I can think of one possible example, in Ireland, but the particular conditions under which that deposit were laid down have long gone and there has also been a high degree of disturbance which would possibly impact on the reliability of the chemical analyses.

Most sediment deposits in UK caves don't really have identifiable seasonal components, especially currently active ones.

Cheers for you help its much appreciated, i was wondering if it is possible that there maybe sites where although they don't not flood annually they flood regularly say at least once every 5 years, this would give a reasonable lamination for my study and also maybe easier to access. However, i understand churning is a major issue with such sites and flushing out the older sediment. I have had giants hole suggested, just wondered what people think to that suggestion, or possible P8 near Winnats Pass. Cheers for the response its much appreciated.

It really depends exactly what you are studying:

Do you need laminae or annual laminae particularly?

Do you need a deposit that is still active or will a relict one do as well?

Does the deposit need to be undisturbed or will an undisturbed section through an otherwise disturbed deposit do?

Do you want sand/mud/silt only, or will a larger or more varied clast size do?

Are you starting to wish you'd opted for 'film studies' or perhaps a degree in 'PE' at loughborough?

Know that it is in the wrong county but how about the extensive mud banks in Dukes Street 2? Thanks to the new Whirlpool passage this is relatively easy to access even if it is in Yorkshire!

I dont know what you are studying in the sediment but have you had any contact with Derik Fable at Heriot Watt, he has done lots of sampling in Mamoth Caves in the US and might have some good ideas. (He's my cousin BTW)

I agree with graham, it seems very unprobable to find any sediment that has been insitu for the last 100 years, considering water flow in caves are ephemeral - perennial and usually very strong currents. Additionally, caves are considered secondary porosity in the rock, meaning that water can be expected to be continuoustly flowing to/from the water table. It will be rare to find sediment accumlating continuosly fo the last 100 years.

I'm not sure if anyone knows.. but maybe all that icky mud in the streamway at peakcavern could be a place you could look at? its got sediment.. and its accumulating.. but also very disturbed from naughty cavers romping up and down.  Or maybe Duke's street in Ireby (Yorkshire) its got very nice bank deposits and floods only in very very wet conditions.

I might be entirely wrong with my hypothesis, (i'm a geologist.. what do i know about sediments!) but here are some possibilities you could look at and decide:

1)  http://www.peakcavemonitoring.org.uk/  They have sheets for cavers to help monitor geomorph features in a cave.. you might want to look at them and see if 'layers of sediment accumulate' is in any cave.

2)  http://bcra.org.uk/pub/sci-index.html    Rob's mentioned this already.

3)  Come to the cave science symposium on the 7th of march at Sheffield university architecture department.  I'm sure there will be oodles of brains for you to pick at.

4)  stalagtites are also a good indication of either climate or geomorph changes. THe trouble with stal sample collection is convincing the authorities (legally) that they should let you do it. x-section a stal and it can tell you wonders.

Seriously - if your after one in the Peak District - Bagshawe is the place you want to be.

There are large banks of undisturbed sediment all over the cave.

It goes 'into flood' least once a year, but probably about 3 times a year on average. And by Flood, what I mean is that the main trunk route of the cave is an overflow for the stream passage that runs at a lower level. In times of sudden and high water flow, such as this week with all the snow melt, The volume of water is too great for the stream passage, and it backs up, then overflows along the upper series, until it falls down a pitch and eventually rejoins the stream in the lower series.

The advantage I can see is that you have areas of kind of static water, where it does drop a large amount of sediment in very distinct layers. these are in the 'backing up' part of the cave, You also have areas of turbulent flow, where the sediments will presumably display different properties, in the overflow section.

To add another dimension, you've also got abandoned areas of sediment, where the highest flood levels no longer reach, presumably due to the continual down cutting of the stream.

Surely an interesting study to try and match some of the layers in the abandoned areas with the deeper layers for the still active areas.

Just my two peneth, PM me or 'Johnny' on this site for more info.

a couple of (shite) photos.





This is a rift that has been filled over the millennia with sediments, then (I believe) has been washed out from below by repeated floods each year.

The photos dont show the layers very well, but we put the boards on top to prevent damage to the 'lip' of the top which is actually a thick layer of calcite.

If it's topped out by calcite, Sam, I might guess that it's no longer being actively laid down.

Indeed your right graham,

This is one of the 'abandoned' sections of sediment I mentioned. There are of course areas where the sediments are still actively being layed down each year.

Whats interesting about this section of cave  - is that I believe that its being washed out from below by annual floods, the maximum flood level being about 3 or 4 meters below this point.

OK, so the sediment was laid down. The deposit ceased to form & a subsequent calcite layer was deposited on top. Later on the water returned and started to undermine the sediment banks. This latter process is still going on.

That should be enough to give you a handle on the age of these deposits and so a minimum age for the passages themselves. You may be able to refine and confirm that time line by a U/Th date on the stal, and a optical date on the sand.