Following a recent conversation I got to thinking about the relevance of clubs, I know this is probably like asking the choir if they think the hymns need re-writing but in the fine tradition of this forum I am going to bang on anyway. Have clubs got a future? Are they needed?




Do you enjoy being in a club or is it a chore that needs doing? Do you get out as much as you put in? Could clubs be improved or are you happy with the status quo?

Thoughts and comment please! and it might help to know if you are or have been on a club committee or the like.

I originally joined a club for some of the reasons you have stated (mostly permits).  I have experienced lots, and got out caving to more bizarre locations with the club than if I had gone on my own.

I am in a small club and there are about 10 - 12 active cavers, with most trips having a minimum of 6 people.  It is a good atmosphere and has lead to groups of us doing more activities other than caving.  I am not the most soliasing of people, so a  small club has got my vote.

Before we joined we did a lot of research and chose the club we are in as it did not have restrictions and voting / nominations to join.  At times (The AGM) it is a bit bureaucratic but on the whole there are no politics and what there are normally revolve around who is cleaning the club ropes!

That's quite a reasonable point you make there Bitterend 

Clubs, groups etc, are by no means the be all and end all of all things.
Some people like it , some people don't, so it's very much a personal thing.

There are obviously, to some people, disadvantages for both views and like wise, advantages also.

However, I do see a lot of disadvantages from not being in a club and I am personally of the opinion, that 'we' do, as you have said, get out what we indeed put in.

I haven't been a member of a Club for some years now, a fact that I am at present, trying to rectify by re applying to my "mother" club.

There are various reasons why I would like to be back within a club again;

Social reasons.......I do miss the camaraderie that I used to experience when I was a member before, and ,as a result of not being in  that club, I have lost contact with a lot of friends etc ( that is wholly my fault, as I should have found ways and means of contacting people), but nonetheless, having the Social gatherings at the Club certainly helped to keep contacts going, and like wise, it keeps your own profile fresh in the minds of others.
That also extends to not just big social events that clubs do organise either. The same effect can be  achieved come from just popping in for a coffee and a chat in said clubs.

Obviously, as within any large group of people, you will always get the very minuscule number, who you don't get on with, and or don't agree with, but we can chose who we like to be around! 

Direct caving reasons ........I have caved for many years now (since I was about 9yrs old) and have , at times solo-caved. Solo caving can be a very rewarding experience, but also (I hasten to add) a dangerous one too! But I have done it, and really and truthfully, caving on your own doesn't come close, IMHO, to caving with others.
With that in mind, I have found in my experience, that we all lead busy and hectic lives, so our regular caving buddies, and especially mine, are not always available to go caving when I am.
So, rocking up to a friendly Club, were there are either other like minded people and or groups or individuals you may never before have met, you can always find someone to go caving with.
This has happened to me many times and I have had some pretty excellent trips because of it too!

Information........clubs are a mine of information, whether it is via a well stocked caving library, or just some old bloke sat on a couch who has "done it all before" ....hahaha Myself not included there 
I know we have lots of information out there nowadays at our fingertips, so, for a lot of the time, we can find out most info without leaving our comfy lounges. But, how was that information gathered in the first place?....much of it, if not all of it, came from other Cavers who have been or are, members of clubs and organisations of other cavers.
They then have published their findings, and or can relate the information to others within the relaxed confines of a Hut Common room, or Club Journal etc.
Without a club, would this have still happened?.....I think possibly not!

Accommodation ......Clubs, with Huts, are a massive boon. Where would we be without having them?
They are great for staying in, especially if you go to a completely different caving area where you may not be able to either afford, or have a choice of any other accommodation available.
I know we can always pitch a tent, but, for a lot of people, sleeping under canvas isn't always their thing, so having a club hut to stay is is a brilliant idea.

This has proven itself in the wider outdoor pursuits field too. You only have to look at the YHA or the Mountain Bothies Assoc for good examples.
If a group of people hadn't joined together and formed a club in the first place, then we wouldn't have had the enjoyment of their fantastic facilities over the years. So there is that to consider too I feel.

For me, the reasons I have said sum up how I feel in general regarding clubs, and I do feel that they are an integral backbone of our sport and pastime of caving.
So, for me, their future and existence is important.
I know that over the last 14 years that I haven't been in a club, I have had some difficulty in accessing some caves which I would like to have gone into.
Permit systems and insurance issues are pretty much sorted when you are in a club, so when you are not, it can be a real pain!

With regards to committees and the running of such clubs, I have never been involved in any of that.
But, again, if a club or a committee isn't doing what we think is needed,or is maybe going about it the wrong way, then we need to get involved to be able to change that eh?


All in all, with all of my ramblings here, I am very much in favour of Caving Clubs. They are what they are. If we like them then grand, if we don't then change them. But the only way to get it to our liking, is to join and put our views across.....Just some thoughts <;-0)

Eh?!

I can think of a lot more reasons than those on your (i.e. TheBitterEnd's) list why being in a club is so much better than not being - and at least some of the so called counter arguments don't actually apply / aren't actually relevant.

My own view is that I get far more enjoyment from caving by being an active club member. Clubs obviously do have a future (only a few days ago there were posts on here about a new club being launched - so there is certainly a desire for cavers to be in clubs). I don't currently serve on any club committee (but I have done occasionally in the past).

Here's one story which may help folk understand why there's all sorts of unexpected benefits to club membership. Back in the 1990s a certain George Cornes (then 75 years old) expressed a desire to do a through trip from Lancaster Hole to County Pot once again. He was quite frail by that age; it was a daunting prospect but members of my club decided to organise a special meet for this purpose. We invited friends in other clubs to come along and, to cut a long story short, it turned into quite a day with a big team. Against all odds the job was done and the trip was even captured in a video (I still have a copy here). Some grub had been organised back at the hostel, which was just as well as most people had had a very long day.

Then we descended on the pub; after a few brown ales George started telling us about the day when he'd actually discovered Lancaster Hole just after the war. He told us loads of hilarious stories about the Eli Simpson politics - of hiding in shakeholes watching BSA members cement in steel lids then scooping out the wet cement as soon as they'd disappeared over the horizon. It was a fantastic day and a magical evening. George was actually the last man standing in the wee small hours; I'll never forget the beaming smile on his face as, completely knackered, I finally staggered off to my pit.

It's hard to imagine how such rich experiences would come together without the club infrastructure behind them. There's so much more to being a caver than merely going caving.

I could give loads more examples along the lines of the one above but let me finish by asking a question; would we have such a diverse collection of excellent caving club journals if there hadn't actually been any clubs? (Your own club's 50 years celebratory journal is a magnificent example of the genre . . . . )

Hey Pitlamp!

Here's one story which may help folk understand why there's all sorts of unexpected benefits to club membership. Back in the 1990s a certain George Cornes (then 75 years old) expressed a desire to do a through trip from Lancaster Hole to County Pot once again. He was quite frail by that age; it was a daunting prospect but members of my club decided to organise a special meet for this purpose. We invited friends in other clubs to come along and, to cut a long story short, it turned into quite a day with a big team. Against all odds the job was done and the trip was even captured in a video (I still have a copy here). Some grub had been organised back at the hostel, which was just as well as most people had had a very long day.

Then we descended on the pub; after a few brown ales George started telling us about the day when he'd actually discovered Lancaster Hole just after the war. He told us loads of hilarious stories about the Eli Simpson politics - of hiding in shakeholes watching BSA members cement in steel lids then scooping out the wet cement as soon as they'd disappeared over the horizon. It was a fantastic day and a magical evening. George was actually the last man standing in the wee small hours; I'll never forget the beaming smile on his face as, completely knackered, I finally staggered off to my pit.

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That must have been one hell of a trip and a big privilege to have been a part of....well done you guy's for doing it too 

It didn't involve an underground excursion, but I, along with many others who were there, had the chance to meet and listen to the late Graham Balcombe.
He came as a guest speaker at one of our Club Annual dinners.
It was an amazing and quite humbling experience, to meet such a Caving legend....If it wasn't because of the Club, then I know for a fact that I would never have had the opportunity to have met him. 

You're right, "nice but damp" - you do get to meet all sorts of interesting folk which probably wouldn't happen if you weren't in a club. The list of advantages is huge but you don't discover many of the less obvious ones until you've been in a club for a while. People who never actually join a decent club would find it hard to understand.

Sure you can just get a couple of mates in the car, go and do some fearsome pothole, get a real sense of achievement and drive home again. But you'd be really missing out on so much more!

Sure you can just get a couple of mates in the car, go and do some fearsome pothole, get a real sense of achievement and drive home again. But you'd be really missing out on so much more!

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Thing is, though, you could do that and join a club.

Fulk said:

Sure you can just get a couple of mates in the car, go and do some fearsome pothole, get a real sense of achievement and drive home again. But you'd be really missing out on so much more!

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Thing is, though, you could do that and join a club.

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Absolutely - I know you do that regularly and you're a member of at least two excellent clubs that I'm aware of.

When I had had enough of show caves (or rather the missus told me she never wanted to see another and I should go caving properly!) I had a look at options for starting out. I looked at buying the kit and doing a few training courses as I have always shied away from clubs.  However then I found a little club in Stockport, I was given a great welcome within about 24hrs of contacting them, loads of help on the training wall and taken on some fantastic trips that got me hooked on caving within the first few months. I got educated on the permits system for various places as well as where to call in a pay farmers, shown the joys of a bernies breakfast (other breakfasts are available).

Now as a member I have active cavers who are regularly out during the week and at the weekends, fun non-political meetings and a few beers once a month, regular trips to other parts of the country and also some great new mates who I see outside of caving as well.  Trips are scheduled every weekend (or rather permits are arranged) but we mainly just send a quick email out and see who fancies what.  Plus for what it costs it seems a great deal with lots of club tackle to borrow easily from various members.

It's very non-bureaucratic which I suppose its the main bug-bear of clubs, and we are lucky that most of us are pushing ourselves to try harder trips but we also like the easy trips if other members want them or the 'oldies' come out for a day!

For some one who has never really enjoyed or wanted to be in a club, I love it and always recommend joining a club.

To paraphrase what someone once said: "Get two or more Brits together with a common pursuit or interest and they will form a club."

I started caving many years ago with a couple of school friends and we soon realised that once we had "done" the few caves in Mendip, South Wales, The Dales and the Peak which we could manage with our meagre collection of kit and experience, the only way we would progress was to join a club.

We soon realise that not only did we now have the opportunity to go caving where a lot more gear was needed (both expensive and more than the three of us could carry if we had it), but we learnt of the pleasure of caving together in the club both in the UK and increasingly abroad.

Some are just not "clubbable" individuals but that's no problem. However I suspect that those who are "clubbable" actually gain a lot more from caving and not just while they are underground.

The other thing to remember is that whilst a club may have 'Rules' and an AGM you don't have to get deeply involved with these things if you don't want to.

For many years I was a caver who happened to be a member of 2 clubs but had no input to the running of the club. The club was quote happy with this arrangement just as I was.

Joining a club does not mean you have to be tied up with rules and paperwork - it is possible to just enjoy caving!!!!

For well-equipped individuals of great experience, non-Club membership might make sense, but if you are even a bit newish to the game, then you need other club members to guide you round unfamiliar caves, help you when you get stuck and of course have a few pints with.  And if you can eventually reciprocate, then so much the better.

My experience of Caving clubs has been: a friendly welcome from all, I've learnt a lot,  had a lot of fun and having a well-organised secretary helps too

JasonC said:

having a well-organised secretary helps too

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If only he could be arsed to go caving 

Seriously though, thanks for all the excellent responses so far.

I can't imagine life without clubs . Social misfits like myself wouldn't have anyone to cave with if clubs didn't exist .
Also if I didn't have clubs to collect then I'd have to go back to collecting match boxes.
Must admit i didn't enjoy all the politics i endured whist on the committee 

Alongside all the other more tangible advantages I can say that without doubt that a club also offers other benefits.

When I became seriously ill a few years back it was the caving world that kept me going, it was my club mates that helped me recover..... (YES even Les, Adrian & Jude, Frank and the rest of the Wessex lot, even some members of the Shepton).
A caving club is so much more than a place to stay, or just a bunch of people that go caving together.

Hmm... good point TheBitterEnd.

For caving and climbing I've been a member of various clubs over the years depending on where I lived and where I caved/climbed, and enjoy the experience. I contrast this with my mine exploration and hillwalking/scrambling where its all done outside of any club structures with networks of like-minded friends, pooling gear in the case of mine exploration.

Both approaches can work perfectly well...

I have to agree with RobJones.

What struck me at NAMHO (just last weekend) is the difference in approach between Mine Explorers and Cavers. There seem to be fewer clubs proportionally, and those that are usually have the word cave in them - which is a dirty word in that world because they think they're dangerous 

I've been exploring with a loose group of people, what struck me as a club but no official structure. I wondered why and asked and the response was what seemed to be 'well it hadn't really occurred to us'. According to one of my learned caving friends this is because they come at it from an anarchist viewpoint - going places they're not supposed to be, while cavers are 'trained'. Their approach works but I come away feeling 'but if you...' with regards to organisation. Maybe (some) cavers are just institutionalised!

I didn't join a caving club until I was nearly thirty, after a bad experience with a diving club years earlier. Biggest mistake I ever made - I missed a lot. Being a member of a good caving club brings real benefits.

The mining /caving contrast was highlighted recently in a Facebook discussion on the state of the lake area on the CRTT trip. The number of abandoned rubber boats and other debris is incredible - despite big clean up efforts by a small group of volunteer club members. It seems club membership encourages us to keep things tidy, whereas some with anarchist tendencies feel it's reasonable to leave all their rubbish where it falls.

To be fair to (my) group of mine explorers, though they weren't a club they still pitched in with CRTT. I do agree - you get many visiting explorers with no sense of community spirit

Good points there and I guess there are all sorts of approaches and attitudes.

It seems to meet that in caving clubs there are actually a number of smaller loose groupings, after all you can't know, or get on with 200 or 300 people and I guess most people want to cave with people at their own level. The club acts as an umbrella for admin, a way to meet people, provides gear and accommodation etc.