just trying  to find out if it's me being scarred and chicken or  if people do'nt use ropes on  ladders .

It's definitely considered best practice to use a safety line with a ladder, Alan: the expression "ladder and line" should provide a bit of a clue! Some people don't bother - they're grown-ups and can make up their own minds - but having seen more than one ladder break without warning, it would arguably be grossly negligent to routinely presume/expect/infer/suggest/recommend that others should climb without a safeguard, imo, especially if they are in your care and you are the de facto leader of a trip.

Thankfully, ladders are becoming less frequently used, giving way to other safer and easier techniques (albeit ones which require the ability to do some learning). Don't let anyone make you feel like you're somehow lacking in your prowess, stick to your guns; if you're negotiating a ladder pitch make sure there's a safety line for you to use if that's what makes you happier to progress.

Almost always.

The two exceptions have been far into daren cilau on a short climb and in chamber 20 in wookey, about a 2m climb on ladder to a freeclimb after.

As you get older and wiser, you appreciate that having an incident is not just about the kit failing, it could be more personally serious. I know personally one person who had a heart attack on a pitch. He made it out, but could so easily have fallen off.

Actually, now I think about, he might have been climbing a rope not a ladder, but the principle is much the same and I took note of it. I also know someone who only fell off a ladder maybe only a metre, and broke both ankles which made a big impact on her life for perhaps a year, or possibly more.

In my limited experience of ladders (basically in Zumemrzet) we have always used a line (Swildons 20, Shatter Pot and the climb up to the Ladder Dig series in GB.  Also when we have used ladders in P8 for novices (never again!) we always used a line.

Always. And it has proved to have been a wise decision several times in the past saving me from injury or worse.

I tend not to, but if someone wants a rope they can have one with no comments made.

Hi Smiley Alan, when I was a beginner, I saw a woman fall off the free climb out of Kingsdale Master Cave because she was too embarrassed to ask for a line on the ladder (she told us afterwards).  Despite a heavy fall, thankfully she was OK, however everyone there wished she's asked for a line.

I always ask for a line coming up that pitch, even if I'm the only one who wants one and am forever grateful to my fellow cavers for a) lining me up and b) never making me feel bad about it.

If you prefer a line on a ladder ask for one, if the cavers you are with don't want to line you up - cave with someone else    You're not chicken 

depends on what and where.

As others imply it depends on the situation. It's rare I use a ladder but when I do and it's less than 5m then I'll probably do without a line (I know, a 1m fall could do me harm etc), that's my choice.

If I was planning a trip with a ladder, which is usually a short single pitch, or maybe two pitches at a push, then I'd always take a rope or two for lining purposes. If I was rigging then I'd either have an idea of what fellow cavers wanted (inexperienced ladder users would get one whether they like it or not) or more usually I just ask if anyone wants a line. Asking takes what, a few seconds and possibly makes those on the trip feel better about requesting one. If anyone did request a line then it would be provided without making that person feel bad or otherwise (that's just a tossers trick).

In the transition days we used a self lining system;
Rig ladder & line.
Diaper sit sling clipped to a belay belt, ab down on a fig.8, secure line at bottom as well as top, on return clip jammer to harness, climb ladder, last person unfasten rope at bottom and lined up conventionally.
Speeded up freshers trips a lot!
NOTE; two experienced cavers required, first man & last man, good for pitches up to 50ft, over that, SRT.

Fixed ladders - depends on where, how shonky and how high. Usually belay less experienced cavers on big ones.

Electron / wire ladders - absolutely every single time. It's not that I'm weak or out of my comfort zone but I want to live. These ladders break, I've seen it. They are only manufactured to hold about twice body weight and that does not include the home made variety. I choose to live and I rig fast so it is no inconvenience. Rope every single time.

Fixed ladders generally not.

Otherwise yes. Although I have free-climbed a few short ladder pitches (less than 1/2 length) I've also slipped and been caught by the safety line.

Pete K said:

Fixed ladders - depends on where, how shonky and how high. Usually belay less experienced cavers on big ones.

Electron / wire ladders - absolutely every single time. It's not that I'm weak or out of my comfort zone but I want to live. These ladders break, I've seen it. They are only manufactured to hold about twice body weight and that does not include the home made variety. I choose to live and I rig fast so it is no inconvenience. Rope every single time.

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Quoted for truth.

Also, experienced cavers have a responsibility to demonstrate and encourage safe caving practices with beginners. Beginners should not be "deciding" or "asking" for a line -- there should be a line in place, and everyone should use it.

What experienced cavers do on their own is their own business; they can climb electron ladders unlined if they want. But when you are taking beginners caving you have a duty of care. Failing to provide a lifeline is failing in your duty of care. Allowing beginners to think a lifeline is "optional" or "there if you need it" is failing in your duty of care.

Despite never seeing a ladder break, or feeling like it would, I always have used a rope belay and always from a different anchor to the ladder.  I didn't think anything else was really acceptable, probably from talking to CIC holders a long way back who told me exactly what Mike just said.

ianball11 said:

Despite never seeing a ladder break, or feeling like it would, I always have used a rope belay and always from a different anchor to the ladder. 

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Precisely. Just because a ladder doesn't break - they are usually attached to a single anchor...


A few years ago I was about to descend a ladder on a pitch of around 8 metres the way into a cave. The person who had rigged the ladder had climbed down without a lifeline. The second person insisted on a lifeline (I would have done if they didn't) and they climbed down.


I was next and set off down the ladder and after a few rungs found myself falling about a metre and a half onto a small ledge below (luckily). I was being lifelined so didn't topple over backwards down the remaining part of the pitch and had landed on my feet with no harm. However, I was joined by the top of the ladder, which I managed to keep hold of.


With assistance from a tight lifeline from above, I was able to climb back up to the top of the pitch. I then found out why the ladder had fallen with me on it. We have small brass ID tags on out ladders attached by a small keyring. The keyring was still attached to the krab on the belay! The person who had rigged the ladder had somehow attached the ladder to the belay by clipping a krab through the keyring instead of the proper ladder attachment points!


This small keyring had managed to survive two others descending the ladder (the first with no lifeline...) and had presumably gradually undone and then completely undid when I was on the ladder...


You don't always check a ladder belay and presume whoever attached the ladder did a good job. I always check now though....

Mike Hopley said:

But when you are taking beginners caving you have a duty of care. Failing to provide a lifeline is failing in your duty of care. Allowing beginners to think a lifeline is "optional" or "there if you need it" is failing in your duty of care.

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I would prefer to change the word "beginners" to "anyone" - it's hard to define what constitutes a beginner.

It's best to always assume that everyone will be using a line. That way, the people more likely to feel uncomfortable by defying the norm are those who decline to use the line provided.

I do agree that lifelines should *always* be used with a ladder and nobody should have to ask for one.

As I said, I haven't twice. Both situations the ladder was essentially a handline though, rather than a proper pitch.

The reason I remember both occasions is it still felt very very wrong to not be using a line!

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