"Responsibility" for self help / rescue

Ian P

Administrator
Staff member
Do we as cavers have a "responsibility" / "obligation " (morally or otherwise) to make sure we have the equipment and knowledge to ensure we can deal with possible issues underground.

Specifically thinking something like the ability to get someone with a minor injury (eg. sprained ankle etc) up fairly simple pitch.

Reports of walkers having to call mountain rescue when they are lost because they didn't have a map and compass (or the ability to use them) is usually met with tuts and calls to charge them for the rescue.

If say someone had to call cave rescue, to get someone up Sell Gill with a sprained ankle because the group didn't have the kit or knowledge, would this generally be seen as "yeah fine, not a problem". Or is it more like the walkers without a map and compass ?

i suppose groups go underground with either, "we can help ourselves to a point" or "any problems at all and we call cave rescue".

Are both attitudes acceptable?

Solo caving and complex issues / injuries obviously excepted.

 

zomjon

Member
We are a relatively small community, who on the whole are pretty aware of the seriousness of situations we put ourselves in. Many of us are either actively involved in Cave Rescue or have been in the past. I think whenever is possible and sensible, we will try self rescue. It's hardly as if we are carrying a mobile phone! I think the majority of us also recognise the need to follow sensible etiquette to avoid putting others at unnecessary risk.
 

Dave Tyson

Member
I think groups should endeavour to self rescue if the injuries aren't too serious and the injured party is willing. Waiting for a rescue team is likely to increase anxiety and in draughty caves or mines there is a greater chance of hypothermia. However in the case of serious injuries moving the casualty without proper aids may result is a worsening condition.

That said, we self rescued a person who fell over in a mine and caught his arm on a projection which broke his humerus. We strapped arm to his body (too painful to bend it to put in a sling) and walked him out slowly. The challenge was to slide him through a 1m diameter pipe forming a choke dam without causing too much distress - pulling on his good arm and pushing his feet worked, but the exit was 4' off the ground and so his weight had to be taken on our shoulders till his feet dropped to the ground. Evacuated to hospital and pinned successfully. We didn't want to call the rescue as we shouldn't have been there  :)

Dave
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Attitudes and individuals

I did an ankle years ago at Cwmystwyth down the skipway. It was jumping about to catch the timer on a camera, what today we would call a 'selfie'.

Got myself back up, de-tacked the pitch, and got out of the mine.
Fun started when the boot came off, it did a balloon type thingy

Actually drove home as well, but cramped my style a bit. Did it all the way home without a single person flashing their lights at me.
 

cavemanmike

Active member
A friend smashed the top of his foot when a ladder collapsed on him and landed on the top of his foot 400ft underground.
Took his sock off wrapped it around his foot and climbed  400ft of ladders went straight to hospital 🏥.
Now that my friends is a self rescue you should be proud of  (y)
 

JohnS

New member
When you say self rescue do you mean self as in the party of people underground or just the person that is injured?
 

cavemanmike

Active member
JohnS said:
When you say self rescue do you mean self as in the party of people underground or just the person that is injured?

Both I suppose. The guy I'm talking about was in a small group but sorted it out himself and walked out himself
 

thomasr

New member
An important consideration is the enduring and life long effects of toughing it out with undiagnosed injuries  If in doubt call em out
 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
There's also the risk that you can get yourself into more difficulty whilst rescuing. Take your broken ankle with a single easy pitch example - if they can still stand on their good leg and you can assist them up the pitch that's great, unless you get them halfway up the pitch, they get exhausted, and you can't haul them up to the top. Because then you've got a caver with a broken ankle stuck on a pitch and possibly unable to get themselves down.

When I lead uni trips I would much rather ensure that the injured caver is safe then call cave rescue than try and deal with it on my own, because it's just not worth the risk with novices, and it's very difficult for 1 leader to orchestrate a safe vertical rescue whilst keeping the rest of the group safe.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
I have never heard a cave rescuer say that they would rather not know about an accident if the person could self-rescue.
 

Kenilworth

New member
andrewmc said:
I have never heard a cave rescuer say that they would rather not know about an accident if the person could self-rescue.

Lots of rescuers enjoy the excitement, the politics, and the ego games of a rescue situation. Lots of them say that this isn't so, that they are selfless volunteers who care about nothing except the well-being of their fellow man. Lots of them are liars. Not only cave rescuers but policemen, firefighters etc. Concern for the victim is not the reason for the ridiculous overresponse that accompanies most incidents.

RE the OT:
Do we as humans have the responsibility to make sure we bave the equipment/knowledge to deal with problems in life? Caving is no different than taking a bath or riding a motorcycle or picking apples. We ought to take care of ourselves as best we reasonably can. Sometimes we need help, and hopefully there will be someone to help us when that time comes. 

I cave with the understanding that self rescue is the only option, as is usually the reality since I am often solo and never inform anyone of my plans or out time. This isn't for everyone but it helps me take my personal behaviour more seriously.

If someone needs rescue because of negligent ignorance, they may be at fault to some extent, but they have also likely learned some important things.
 

tamarmole

Active member
I seem to recall back in the mists of time one of the original explorers of Notts II taking a nasty fall on the wrong side of the sump, diving himself through the sump and exiting Notts Pot under his own steam with a a knackered arm.  That's one double hard individual.
 

cavemanmike

Active member
ALL situations are different and you have to way up the pros and cons, a leader taking noobies down usually has no choice other than to call cro(lack of experienced cavers in group). But a group of experienced cravers have a lot more options.
 

droid

Active member
Massive respect to those that can drag themselves out of a 'situation', but I think the CRO would rather be called out too soon rather than too late.....
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
The OP asked ?Do we as cavers have a "responsibility" / "obligation " (morally or otherwise) to make sure we have the equipment and knowledge to ensure we can deal with possible issues underground.?  Answers have mostly reflected tales of self extraction.  What has not really been discussed is what level of kit should one take?  To focus in on this area, should one take for example:

back up light,
first aid kit,
bivi bag,
food,
rope / line,
candle & lighter,
lifeline for ladder pitch,
spare SRT kit,
hat,

and so on.  And should every one carry their own or can you have a ?party? rescue bag??
 

PeteHall

Moderator
I mostly cave alone and I always carry a spare light. As an added security, all my lights use the same type of battery, so are interchangeable if needed.

On longer trips I always carry a chocolate bar and a neoprene hood.

Anything over and above this depends on the trip. I've never carried a first aid kit or bivi bag, but I can see that this is not a bad idea. Spare SRT kit seems overkill (for most UK trips at any rate), a Tibloc, sling, knife and pulley probably covers most eventualities on a rope.

The flip-side of this though is that the more you carry, the more tired you are and the more chance of having an accident, hence my light-weight approach.

I think the overiding responsiblity is to understand the consequences of an accident; if you have an accident four hours into a cave and nobody expects you out for another 10, you'll be waiting a bloody long time for help to arrive and when it does, that's only the beginning. Add dificult squeezes or sumps into the equation and beeing equiped for self rescue seems a good idea, but avoiding the accident in the first place seems an even better plan!

As someone said at a recent rescue training day "if you take one lesson out of today: don't have an accident!"
 

mikem

Well-known member
There is also the old maxim - you don't know what you don't know - some people should know better, but others are just unlucky...

Mike
 
Kenilworth said:
RE the OT:
Do we as humans have the responsibility to make sure we bave the equipment/knowledge to deal with problems in life? Caving is no different than taking a bath or riding a motorcycle or picking apples. We ought to take care of ourselves as best we reasonably can. Sometimes we need help, and hopefully there will be someone to help us when that time comes. 

At least here in the UK, in an accident in a typical home, a motorcycle accident, an accident picking apples etc. - an ambulance could be with you in less than 20 minutes. The target response time for a life-threatening condition is just 8 minutes after a call.

In a cave it's very different. It could take a couple of hours for a member of a party to reach the surface to raise the alarm in the first place - or worse if caving solo and a relative has to call out based on a call-out time. Then there's the time taken for cave rescue to assemble and reach the cave entrance - plus more time needed to reach the casualty underground. Then extracting the casualty could take several hours. All in an environment where it's easy for hypothermia to set in - especially if the casualty isn't able to move for themselves very easily. If you aren't in a position to self-rescue or keep an immobile casualty warm yourselves, then a minor injury underground could be life-threatening.
 

Ian P

Administrator
Staff member
Just to hopefully clarify.

"Self rescue" meant as a group.
I understand individually we can quite often get out of some tricky situations.

Equipment wise I was more thinking about assisting up pitches. (Whilst agreeing with Bob about other items).

Completely agree about more serious issues such as broken bones etc. Call out cave rescue.

Thinking more of much simpler incidents.

As a "Litmus test" how about:-

In a small group you have descended the small pitch from Valley entrance into the streamway.  You have used a ladder and lifeline, waist belay and bowline tied around your waist.
Someone sprains their ankle, they can crawl but not climb a ladder.

The only option (??) is to call for help.

Are you sat at the bottom of the pitch thinking:
a) No problem, cave rescue like to come out and It will be no problem. I will not feel embarrassed telling my peers about it.
Or
b) Feeling a bit embarrassed, wishing you had a bit of extra kit so as a team you could all get out under your own steam. 
 
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