Hello everyone

In the January 2018 Committee meeting the CNCC made the decision to opt-out of a long-standing access agreement with Langcliffe Estate covering Penyghent Pot, Psilomelane Pot, Dale Head Pot, and other small caves in between these around the south side of Penyghent.

The decision to do this was based on the age of the access agreement (which included clauses that were no longer relevant, could not be complied with, and could not be renegotiated) and also the identification of the tax-exempt heritage status of the land.

These caves are all located on access land covered by the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, which at the very least enables access to the cave entrances on foot. Furthermore, the land has tax-exempt heritage status which we believe provides public access into the caves.

The CNCC has not been made aware of any restrictions that should compromise access to these caves.

Groups are advised to use public footpaths from either Brackenbottom or Dale Head to reach the access land as shown on Ordnance Survey, observe the Countryside Code, be courteous to any farmers or gamekeepers you may meet, and to report to the CNCC if you encounter any access or conservation issues during your visit.

Penyghent Pot is an outstanding trip and a true Yorkshire potholing adventure, and has recently benefited from new CNCC-approved IC-resin anchors and entrance stabilisation works. A rigging topo and route description can be found on our website:

https://cncc.org.uk/cave/penyghent-pot

Dale Head Pot has come to the attention of many since the publication of 'Not for the Faint Hearted' and is a great example of a more challenging pothole with the added benefit of being conveniently close to the road. Discussions are currently ongoing to consider making the entrance of this cave safer for livestock and to review the current resin anchor situation.

Kind regards
Matt Ewles, Secretary, Council of Northern Caving Clubs

Hearty news!  Well done. 

great news, thanks to all involved.

Brilliant news thank you to the cncc

Good choice CNCC great move well done

Very well done, CNCC. The way ahead, without a doubt.

That's brilliant news.  Well done to those who researched the situation and came up with a sensible solution.

Cracking bit of news, it's nice to see a sensible approach to shrugging off untenable conditions.

This is great news, and is surely an example of a way forward. Admittedly, not all parcels of land benefit from the same "tax exempt heritage status"; though I wonder how many do? And how do we find this out?

Is nobody from t'other side going to tell us why this is bad news? (Only joking).

It's the sort of intelligent pragmatic solution that's served caving well for decades......

Well done for taking a common-sense approach for the benefit of cavers. Thanks to all involved.

It has taken the efforts of the previous Access Officer, Johnny Latimer, and the present Access Officer, Tim Allen, over four years to finally get a sensible reply from the estate managers to enable a decision to be made about the access agreement.

The owner seems to have a quite open attitude to visitors on the estate. This seems to be an example of the result of the benign effects of the CRoW Act in improving the relationship between visitors and land owners. This is what the owner of the estate said in an interview by the author of the book Yorkshire's Three Peaks: The Inside Story of the Dales (2014), "We were bit frightened by the CRoW Act and I was nervous. In the end, though, I was pleased that the reality was much better than people and I had feared... As a result, visitor behaviour has improved and the network of footpaths became better than ever before because they need to be maintained... We have much fewer problems now than we did many years ago."

I think landowner behaviour has improved.

Dalehead Pot always was one the of the very popular, slightly more challenging, classic trips. In the 1980s Burnley Caving Club had a period of digging in the bottom. We went most weeks for several months, never had a permit, spoke to the farmer on a few occasions and never came across any objections to our presence.

We dug at the level of the top of Pool Pitch and found another pitch which dropped down to a sump at the same level as, but beyond, the previously known sumps. There are still digging prospects down there.

Good work, eventually no where on access land will require a permit. We are getting there slowly but surely.

Again good work.

Simon Wilson said:

The owner seems to have a quite open attitude to visitors on the estate. This seems to be an example of the result of the benign effects of the CRoW Act in improving the relationship between visitors and land owners. This is what the owner of the estate said in an interview by the author of the book Yorkshire's Three Peaks: The Inside Story of the Dales (2014), "We were bit frightened by the CRoW Act and I was nervous. In the end, though, I was pleased that the reality was much better than people and I had feared... As a result, visitor behaviour has improved and the network of footpaths became better than ever before because they need to be maintained... We have much fewer problems now than we did many years ago."

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This is exactly the sort of information that needs to be more publicised.

He's being perverse when he says, "visitor behaviour has improved". I think visitor behaviour has changed little and much less than the behaviour of landowners, farmers and gamekeepers which has improved dramatically. It is now much less common for them to shout at people or threaten them with guns. We can now walk on the moors and have a friendly chat with a gamekeeper when we meet.

paul said:

Simon Wilson said:

The owner seems to have a quite open attitude to visitors on the estate. This seems to be an example of the result of the benign effects of the CRoW Act in improving the relationship between visitors and land owners. This is what the owner of the estate said in an interview by the author of the book Yorkshire's Three Peaks: The Inside Story of the Dales (2014), "We were bit frightened by the CRoW Act and I was nervous. In the end, though, I was pleased that the reality was much better than people and I had feared... As a result, visitor behaviour has improved and the network of footpaths became better than ever before because they need to be maintained... We have much fewer problems now than we did many years ago."

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This is exactly the sort of information that needs to be more publicised.

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I agree with you, Paul, but it should be obvious to people that landowners are very happy with the effect that CRoW has had in improving many aspects of life in and around access land.

You are generalising from a specific landowner there, Simon.

Not very scientific or logical.

Greg Jones said:

This is great news, and is surely an example of a way forward. Admittedly, not all parcels of land benefit from the same "tax exempt heritage status"; though I wonder how many do? And how do we find this out?

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There's a list on the internet somewhere, published I think by HMRC. It's quite easy to find by googling.

Droid, I don't know what you mean but in any case I'm not arguing with you.

kay said:

Greg Jones said:

This is great news, and is surely an example of a way forward. Admittedly, not all parcels of land benefit from the same "tax exempt heritage status"; though I wonder how many do? And how do we find this out?

Click to expand...

There's a list on the internet somewhere, published I think by HMRC. It's quite easy to find by googling.

Click to expand...

Yes. It's probably worth looking for more of this land. I think there's something funny about it like they don't have to advertise it's existence. Tim will know the story.