SRT teaching, descending - stop or simple?

nobrotson

Active member
On moving to Dublin from Leeds, I have been surprised by the attitude of the student caving club at UCD (my new club) regarding teaching SRT to novices. UCDCPC do not allow freshers who are new to SRT to learn using a simple, arguing that it is more dangerous than using a stop. This is a very contentious issue amongst student cavers (I know quite a few people who have very strong opinions on it), and I personally totally disagree with the policy of teaching SRT using a stop on the basis that it is safer. I have been teaching SRT to freshers for a number of years now, and I have never once seen somebody let go of the dead rope when using a simple. However, I have witnessed a 'clutch-and-plummet' incident on three separate occasions when training, which is impossible to perform with a simple.

I am not arguing for the abolition of stops from university caving as they are incredibly versatile and useful bits of kit. However, I do not feel that they are the correct device for teaching SRT to beginners, as they are a halfway house between a petzl ID, which is an extremely safe device in terms of anti-panic and redundancy mechanisms, and a simple where the users grip provides all the friction control (aside from a braking karabiner). This can give a false sense of security to new users, and also adds further complexity to the learning process. It can allow for the development of bad practices at an early stage, and the consequences of new users misunderstanding the device can be catastrophic (clutch and plummet) and impossible to influence as an instructor. You could have a 'bell ringer' ready to hold the dead rope in case of a fall at the bottom, but that is tricky because if they don't grab the rope tight in time then they could be hit by a free-falling person. There are doubtless other considerations that I have missed here.

What does the caving community overall think about this issue?
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Have been teaching use of Petzl Stop for decades and not had a single clutch and plummet; something to do with training style perhaps.

If you use the search feature for this forum you will find NUMEROUS multi-page threads entirely devoted to this device. No harm in starting another but all the information you seek is presently here in archive so everyone can save a lot of typing effort by not needing to respond with the same comments as have already occurred seemingly countless times. Just saying.

Here's a slogan that you might find useful though:

"Why learn to use two devices when you're going to end up using the safer one?".

Read this to start with, and get it to over 30,000 views by so doing:
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=1174.msg9692#msg9692
 

Cavematt

Well-known member
York University has always (at least in the 14 years I've been involved) taught students on Racks, although I think they have one or two Stops for people to try out once they get a little more experienced.

The majority of the students eventually do move onto Stops or Simples (or a variety of other exciting looking devices); I think they are perceived as the natural progression. However, myself and a handful of my generation have remained on racks to this day despite having tried all other options; I love the smooth and graceful descent they offer on long pitches.

I think the reasoning behind a Rack for SRT teaching was that it was cheaper (at least it used to be many years ago), less easy to get wrong, and easier for the supervisor to see whether it has been done correctly or not. Plus they do not suffer from the plummet risks; in fact some of our lighter freshers have quite the opposite effect and struggle to go anywhere on one! They obviously don't serve as much pie at the student canteens as they did when I was there...

The hair-in-rack is the obvious risks with this device; a pair of safety scissors is usually on standby at most training sessions!

I guess this is a little off topic, but I thought it might be interesting to throw a third option into the mixture.
 

MarkS

Moderator
I think teaching SRT with a non-autolocking device is certainly preferable. Building a healthy respect for keeping a firm grip on the descending rope when starting out with SRT is no bad thing in my view. Plus, from a student caving perspective, the price difference is an added bonus!
 

2xw

Active member
I tried a rack the other day with all the bars and upon letting go of the dead rope proceeded rather quickly - not a plummet but fast enough that it hurt a bit. Other than that I like them for Freshers for the reasons Matt described.

I also agree with Mark. I found it the same with teaching kids climbing: a normal bug is good for teaching how to belay, a grigri breeds laziness.
 

Kenilworth

New member
The best training focuses on concepts, not devices. The dangers of particular devices should be made clear, but most have some advantages or uses that should be explored by anyone learning SRT. Formulaic training is easier for the instructor and student, but does not prepare people to improvise, innovate, or rightly evaluate the safety of alternative gear usage. Of course, instructors haven't got time to do exhaustive training on every available device, but they shouldn't be dogmatic about gear. The student should be encouraged to teach himself to a significant degree.

My descender for my last dozen or so vertical trips has been a carabiner.
 

PeteHall

Moderator
Caving certainly isn't the only "sport" where people train using different equipment than they might end up using, in the interest of developing good technique.

Personally, I learnt to abseil as a child using a figure of eight, then used all manner of belay devices before starting to cave and learning to use a stop, simple, whale tail and various configurations of rack. I good understanding and confidence with a range of techniques and equipment can hardly be seen as a bad thing.
 

PeteHall

Moderator
Kenilworth said:
The best training focuses on concepts, not devices. The dangers of particular devices should be made clear, but most have some advantages or uses that should be explored by anyone learning SRT. Formulaic training is easier for the instructor and student, but does not prepare people to improvise, innovate, or rightly evaluate the safety of alternative gear usage.

For once Kenilworth, I totally agree with you!  (y)
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
There are definitely I few people I know who would benefit from a bit of training with their stop locked off, but equally I wouldn't let them do it unless I was giving them a fireman's belay...
 

Mike Hopley

New member
Abseiling is the most hazardous part of SRT, especially for beginners. When I'm teaching SRT, I want to make sure they have good control of the abseil using the rope. They need to prove this before they get more than 2 metres off the ground (and I like to have a crash mat there too). At the very least, that first abseil is with a Simple.

Nevertheless, I am realistic and I know most UK cavers are going to buy a Stop (even though it costs a lot more). So I am happy to teach them how to use one as well.

The French Caving School insist that the Stop is not suitable for beginners. This is the organisation I respect most for SRT, and I agree with them on this. Nevertheless, both devices are safe if used correctly.

There are many different schools of thought, and it broadens your understanding to know about them. The Polish, for example, have a rather regimented system (you need an SRT licence, apparently). They insist on using either a Stop, or a Simple with a backup device (prusik or Shunt). The latter sounds awful to me, but that's their culture. And they seem to be rather competent cavers, in my experience.


Cap'n Chris said:
"Why learn to use two devices when you're going to end up using the safer one?".

I was taught to use a Stop. Everyone around me thought that Simples were unsafe and rolled their eyes on expeditions when mad foreign cavers turned up using them. Even some of the mad foreign cavers would go down our fast ropes and come back terrified, then borrow a Stop. So all my experience was telling me Simples were unsafe. But I always hated the Stop handle.

Thankfully, I have a curious mind and I read. I was influenced by Alpine Caving Techniques (and later, other sources) to consider ideas that didn't come from my immediate peers. I eventually tried a Simple, and felt much happier with it. I couldn't understand what all the fuss had been about.

It turns out that mad foreign cavers actually know quite a lot about SRT.
 

nobrotson

Active member
Cap'n Chris said:
Have been teaching use of Petzl Stop for decades and not had a single clutch and plummet; something to do with training style perhaps.

If you use the search feature for this forum you will find NUMEROUS multi-page threads entirely devoted to this device. No harm in starting another but all the information you seek is presently here in archive so everyone can save a lot of typing effort by not needing to respond with the same comments as have already occurred seemingly countless times. Just saying.

Here's a slogan that you might find useful though:

"Why learn to use two devices when you're going to end up using the safer one?".

Read this to start with, and get it to over 30,000 views by so doing:
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=1174.msg9692#msg9692

10/10 for condascending tone. It's great that you think 'training style' was to blame for a clutch and plummet having never been present at one of the sessions where this occurred, rather than the device. Since there is absolutely no chance of a clutch and plummet if using a simple rather than a stop, I would beg to differ. I very much agree with Mark. Which is the safer one? I'd vote simple, hence why if I was to follow your line of argument I would certainly never teach people to do SRT using a stop.

Kenilworth, I definitely agree about teaching concepts rather than procedure but when you are teaching a lot of people at once in a busy climbing wall its very useful to be able to check someone's setup quickly and I think the best way to do that as a trainer is by being consistent with the gear.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Explain how a clutch and plummet can occur if structured and well presented training has taken place beforehand.
 

Kenilworth

New member
Kenilworth, I definitely agree about teaching concepts rather than procedure but when you are teaching a lot of people at once in a busy climbing wall its very useful to be able to check someone's setup quickly and I think the best way to do that as a trainer is by being consistent with the gear.

You are right. However, while I don't agree with Chris' training philosophy, certainly not his slogan, it may be true that teaching a lot of people at once on a busy climbing wall is a flawed "training style".
 

Mark Wright

Active member
Coming at it from an industrial rope access standpoint and comparing the Stop & Simple with an I'D & Rig.

There are 2 ways of loading an I'D and if you choose the wrong way it 'Fails to Safe' (Occasional User Failsafe).
If you pull too hard on the control handle during the descent it automatically locks onto the rope (Panic Lock).

There 2 ways of loading a Rig and if you choose the wrong way you plummet.
If you pull too hard on the control handle during the descent and the tail line goes unexpectedly, whistling through your control hand, probably burning it, you will plummet. You may let go of the control handle before you hit the floor but the likelihood is that you wouldn't.
Because of its lack of additional safety features, the user information supplied with it describes it as being for experienced users only.

In an industrial training environment it would be considered highly irresponsible to issue Rigs to inexperienced trainees because of this. A company has been prosecuted for supplying a non auto locking device to a novice which then resulted in a 2 person, rescue training accident with multiple fractures to both people.

What is important in both of the above devices is the auto lock facility which is THE important feature of the EN341A and EN12841C standards they both conform to. EN341A, which is what a Stop conforms to, was written as a rescue device standard around an auto lock device for use in a rescue system on National Grid pylons. The AML device, which is pre-rigged to the rescue line, also has a Panic function although this wasn't made a requirement of the standard. The NG felt it very important to have as many safety features as possible considering it would only ever be used occasionally, hopefully never and in reality probably only during, e.g. 6 monthly training sessions at low level. A typical caver would generally be considered an 'Occasional User'. 

With no auto lock facility, if the user was, e.g. knocked out during the descent, they would let go of the tail line resulting in an uncontrolled descent. If they let go of the tail line without locking the device at, e.g. a re-belay, they could end up stuck in the bottom of the re-belay loop. In an industrial environment there is 100% redundancy from a second safety line, not so down a cave.

Both Stops and Simples have only 1 correct way of loading, but they both have another 11 incorrect ways, and i've seen most of them.

If you get knocked out with a Stop you will stop, or maybe creep a little bit if your Stop is worn out, but if your Stop is worn out you should be experienced enough anyway.

Get knocked out with a Simple and you go whistling down the pitch.

With a Stop, you have much better control at, e.g. a re-belay or other awkward obstacle where you might accidentally let go of the tail line to balance yourself, particularly if a novice. Thin ropes, wet bouncy ropes, new fast ropes, unconditioned ropes or not using an additional breaking carabiner or similar are all potential hazards that should be considered and, where practicable, the associated risk mitigated against.

With, e.g. a new 9mm rope, you could very easily lose control of a Simple at a re-belay and end up stuck in the bottom of the re-belay loop. This is likely to result in a very tired novice as they struggle to get themselves out of the loop under the instruction of someone shouting their interpretation of the correct recovery procedure over the sound of a nearby waterfall. 

I agree with MarkS, that building up a healthy respect for keeping a firm grip on the tail line when starting out with SRT is no bad thing, but this is the same for any type of descender device regardless of its additional safety features.

I've heard all the arguments for Simples being safer for novices than Stops but if you did a thorough risk assessment of an appropriate descender device suitable for complete novices then it wouldn't be a Simple unless additional control measures were implemented.

Whilst someone pulling down hard on the descent rope from the bottom of the pitch might work as a possible control measure, the reaction time would be a real issue.

IRATA carried out live reaction time tests a few years ago at the Petzl factory to see if very experienced rope access technicians would let go of a Shunt if their working line broke. Knowing what was just about to happen not many of them let go in a timely fashion. Over 25% of the technicians doing the test would have hit the floor from 20m had it not been for using a 3rd safety line.

You have to be careful that when carrying out a risk assessment to decide on a suitable device that you do not already have a preferred device. IRATA got itself into deep water some years ago with a senior HSE inspector when some in the offshore industry wanted to keep using Shunts as back-up devices when the independent risk assessment clearly showed them to be the most unsuitable device available. Shunts are still used in industry despite there being a fatality almost every year because of people not letting go of them during a fall. 

The tail line control hand is THE most important safety feature of any descender device. If you let go of it when using a Simple the consequences are going to be far more serious than if using a Stop.

Mark

 

mikem

Well-known member
Cap'n Chris said:
so everyone can save a lot of typing effort by not needing to respond with the same comments as have already occurred seemingly countless times. Just saying.
That would assume that everyone reads the previous comments before posting...

I agree with the use of simples in an indoor context, to get students used to holding on to the rope - in much the same way that bicycles without pedals have been proven to be much better training aids than stabilizers. However, down caves there are far more distractions & factors that you can't control...

Mike
 

David Rose

Active member
This isn't really about training, but as quite an experienced RT user, I prefer the Simple because on a long, expedition type trip I find my left hand gets really tired and achey when using a Stop. I appreciate Mark's point about the consequences of being knocked out when on a rope using a Simple, and it bothers me, but for me, it's outweighed by the discomfort of using a Stop.

His other points - all very valid when considering SRT beginners - are not so important with some experience, especially if you get accustomed to the 'fast' method of double locking off, winding the rope twice through the braking carabiner the same way rather than feeding a loop through it and over the top of the device.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
mikem said:
Cap'n Chris said:
so everyone can save a lot of typing effort by not needing to respond with the same comments as have already occurred seemingly countless times. Just saying.
That would assume that everyone reads the previous comments before posting...

For those that might benefit:

The New (Old) Petzl Stop debate
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=3209.0
Longevity
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=787.msg5007#msg5007
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=2016.msg20135#msg20135
Long pitches
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14042.0
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=4286.0
Research Project discussion
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=4361.0
Choice of descender
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=1850.0
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=11841.msg153604#msg153604
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=7387.0
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=3488.0
Braking carabiner
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=10171.0
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=4113.0
Friction
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14642.msg189814#msg189814
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=2218.msg22074#msg22074
Children
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=11818.msg153126#msg153126
Configuration
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=10568.msg137223#msg137223
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14096.msg181851#msg181851
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14765.msg191410#msg191410
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=4041.0
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=1140.msg8783#msg8783
Connector
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=19890.msg255356#msg255356
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=3143.msg39515#msg39515


 
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