On a separate note, I just noticed this:
Simon Wilson said:
...if in doubt find out? That's total crap.
If people leave stuff littering a cave that looks like junk and they haven't done anything to indicate that they want it left alone then they should expect to lose it. People need to start taking more responsibility for the junk that they take into caves. If they leave stuff behind without doing anything to indicate that they are coming back to it and if it is then removed against their wishes it might make them act more responsibly in the future. Telling people that they have to "find out" is an abdication of responsibility. Trying to force the responsibility onto the people wanting to see the litter removed is selfish.
My suggested slogan is: If you find stuff in a cave that looks as though it is abandoned and there is nothing indicating otherwise, use common sense and if you have the capacity to do so, remove it from the cave and dispose of it in a responsible way; the vast majority of cavers will be grateful.
How can I phrase that in a more concise way? Oh! It's already been done - If in doubt, bring it out.
(Sigh) - Simon, I'm not sure you really understand why some cavers find that slogan inappropriate. I'll try to explain further, using examples.
If you saw a tatty old Mars Bar wrapper on the floor of a relict high level passage, I doubt anyone would disagree it should be removed. You'd be in
no doubt, so obviously you'd take it out (as, of course, would I).
Suppose, though, you came across a digging tub with a rope stacked neatly in it, in a corner of the passage, near some boulders with fresh looking scratches on them. This would suggest it's a legitimate and active project. You'd probably have
considerable doubt in that case about interfering and the reasonable thing to do would be to make at least some effort to
find out first.
There is a whole spectrum of different circumstances in between.
Also, suppose a caving party had come across something interesting on a trip the day before your visit, had decided to start some work and left some items there - but hadn't had the materials with them to produce an adequate sign? What if a group of diggers had produced an explanatory sign and some numpty had been mucking about and removed it, unbeknown to the diggers concerned? What if we're talking about a piece of rope on a climb used to access a dig regularly and a well meaning conservationist removes this without asking when people relying on it are beyond? You could inadvertently cause a serious accident. I could give many other examples of situations where that slogan would be totally inappropriate but hopefully the above will serve to make the point.
One of the things I've learned about politics (whether national or speleological) is "beware the confident person who appears to have the easy answer". Life is rarely that simple.
Your post above seems to disregard the considered opinions of a number of concerned cavers who are at least as experienced as you. Is it really wise to fail to take these opinions into account and describe them as "total crap" if you want to win people over to your cause?
There is plenty of
certain rubbish to be dealing with in our caves before starting to worry about items which you could easily be wrong about. So why not just get on with clearing that out (as many of us already do) and, in cases where there may be doubt, don't mess with it. That stuff can perhaps be looked at in the fullness of time once all the certain rubbish has been dealt with. But surely the certain rubbish should be the first priority?
If there is doubt you should keep your fingers to yourself. If there isn't doubt then clear it out (and I'll be one of the first to say "well done"). This is why some of us object so strongly to that slogan as it gives completely the wrong message. Indeed a slogan is unnecessary anyway. Let's just get on with looking after our caves sensitively and intelligently, without following wrong advice in a few words which conveniently happen to rhyme.
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