CROW and the Yorkshire Dales Local Access Forum (YDLAF)

blackholesun

New member
I emailed Rachel at the YDLAF regarding the matter of CROW and caving and have received an incredibly quick response. I don't want to copy the email, as it was not sent with the intention of being posted on a public forum. But the upshot is that:

Caving and CROW may well not have been addressed at the YDLAF since CROW came in.
Likely no full discussion into the matter.
The next meeting is on the 18th June in Bainbridge
I/we may submit a question for this in advance to be asked for us
I/we may attend the meeting

I'll confirm the first two points when Rachel does.

For now, for this thread, I suggest that we think about the fourth point. What question could be submitted? I personally think that it would be most helpful if it were along the lines of 'what is allowed?', rather than 'what would be best?' as the YDLAF are probably more suited to answering the former, and cavers suited to the latter.
 

blackholesun

New member
(Mods, I know this is the second topic I've started involving CROW, but felt that discussion on this would be diluted and die on the first, big, thread. I know nothing about running a forum, though, so if this should be merged, then I'll be content with that judgement).
 

Rhys

Moderator
blackholesun said:
(Mods, I know this is the second topic I've started involving CROW, but felt that discussion on this would be diluted and die on the first, big, thread. I know nothing about running a forum, though, so if this should be merged, then I'll be content with that judgement).

[gmod]This new thread is directed towards a very specific topic and, as such, I have no problems with it. Well done for making some constructive headway![/gmod]
 

Pete K

Well-known member
Question something along the lines of:
"Does the LAF recognise caving as an 'open-air' recreational activity within the definition of the CRoW act?"

Quantify this question with a statement that includes reference to non listing of caving as an excluded activity, the openness of interpretation within the act and draw parallels with other sports, e.g. a walker being permitted to walk to a cave entrance wearing caving gear. A climber being permitted to walk to a rock face and then take part in his activity.
Acknowledge the concern that new entrances may bring additional cavers to a system but remind them that a permission to dig must be sought initially from the landowner and potentially NE - meaning the LAF has no need to consider the implications. Also that there is no per head limit on the number of walkers or climbers permitted on CRoW land at any given point, 2 far more popular recreational activities.

Now if someone could reconstruct that rambling into a viable proposal that would be great.

EDIT - Proof read fail.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
I agree with Pete K,

I was ?toying? with the following questions ?..

Do ?you? consider CRoW would allow cavers access to caves on CRoW land ?

Would you support an action, such as undertaken by the BMC, whereby they accessed CRoW land, leaving the issue in the hands of the landowner ?

Would you support an action by another ?body? to clarify whether caving would be allowed under CRoW ?

Would you support a member caver or club who believed he/she did have that right and who then entered such a cave ?

If not, what sanction(s) would you seek to apply ?

The more input into this thread, the better.

Ian
 

blackholesun

New member
Good to see feedback so quickly. Hopefully we can come up with something worthwhile that many cavers would like to ask.

Ian; I don't think that the LAF are in the business of giving out sanctions of any sort. That doesn't seem to be what they are there for. If someone is damaging SSSIs, then that is up to NE and the police. Trespass is, likewise, up to the courts.

Otherwise, I'd like to ask everything that has already been asked!
 

bograt

Active member
Well done Blackhole for getting things moving on this, Whatever way you pose the question, please familiarise yourself with the remit of LAF with respect to their duty to minimise damage and impact to natural features on CRoW land, be prepared to respond to their questions on this.
 

Jenny P

Active member
Pete K said:
Question something along the lines of:
"Does the LAF recognise caving as an 'open-air' recreational activity within the definition of the CRoW act?"

Quantify this question with a statement that includes reference to non listing of caving as an excluded activity, the openness of interpretation within the act and draw parallels with other sports, e.g. a walker being permitted to walk to a cave entrance wearing caving gear. A climber being permitted to walk to a rock face and then take part in his activity.
Acknowledge the concern that new entrances may bring additional cavers to a system but remind them that a permission to dig must be sought initially from the landowner and potentially NE - meaning the LAF has no need to consider the implications. Also that there is no per head limit on the number of walkers or climbers permitted on CRoW land at any given point, 2 far more popular recreational activities.

Now if someone could reconstruct that rambling into a viable proposal that would be great.

EDIT - Proof read fail.

I think that's a pretty good idea of the sort of questions we would want to be asked.  I don't think it would be helpful at this stage to be asking a LAF whether they would support action - at present we are trying to establish what the situation might be legally, acknowledging that we appreciate there may be some tricky points in all this.

To be honest, when the original statement was made by NCA and then BCA on this, shortly after the CRoW act came into being, there was not a great deal of discussion and there were no queries as to whether the legal opinion we were given was actually correct - we accepted it was so.  However, now that questions have been raised it is certainly worth re-visiting.
 
The fact that the LAF has three of its current members associated with caving (one CRO, one UWFRA, one 'NCA' member) and that there is a Cave and Crag Advisory Group for 'rock sports' [ http://www.yorkshiredales.org.uk/lookingafter/caringfor/managingaccess/ydaf/ydlaf-advisorygroups/ydlaf-rocksports ] suggests that what seems to me the CNCC's complacency over examining its historic remit on permits for areas covered by CRoW may yet be jogged by this action ... To move things along, how about asking them to explain their position at the same time?
 

Brains

Well-known member
I would suggest asking a short-ish question backed up with supplemenrary information. Meeting by the AOB stage tend to be a little... rushed? Pre circulation to the meetings attendees would also be a good thing.
"What are the LAF's views on caving on CRoW land?" could be one starting point of many...
 

Stu

Active member
Pete K said:
Question something along the lines of:
"Does the LAF recognise caving as an 'open-air' recreational activity within the definition of the CRoW act?"

Quantify this question with a statement that includes reference to non listing of caving as an excluded activity, the openness of interpretation within the act and draw parallels with other sports, e.g. a walker being permitted to walk to a cave entrance wearing caving gear. A climber being permitted to walk to a rock face and then take part in his activity.
Acknowledge the concern that new entrances may bring additional cavers to a system but remind them that a permission to dig must be sought initially from the landowner and potentially NE - meaning the LAF has no need to consider the implications. Also that there is no per head limit on the number of walkers or climbers permitted on CRoW land at any given point, 2 far more popular recreational activities.

Now if someone could reconstruct that rambling into a viable proposal that would be great.

EDIT - Proof read fail.

Peter's question isn't a million miles from being spot on.

If the key point is "open air recreation" maybe widening the proof that caving belongs in the general box of "outdoor pursuits" as evidenced by the many businesses that operate in the Dales as outdoor pursuit providers which include activities that are allowable in CRoW e.g. climbing, walking and that also operate caving as part of their business.

Well done blackholesun.  (y)
 

Pete K

Well-known member
From the minutes of the Cave and Crag Advisory Group meeting on the 23rd October 2008:

GM asked if the group would back cavers in trying to gain access to caves through the
CROW Act. JB reiterated this and said that there is a reluctance from cavers to do
anything about access in case the situation with landowners is made worse. He asked if
the group would be able to help break the barriers between users and landowners. AM
asked why caving had been excluded from the CROW Act. JB said that the BMC had
rallied hard to get climbing included in the Act but that the BCA, due to the lack of
members, hadn?t got their act together. JB added that under Section 16 of the CROW Act,
landowners can dedicate their land for other activities. This has the added benefit of
reducing the level of liability to the landowner. JB asked if the YDNPA and NE could
encourage this.
 

Stu

Active member
Pete K said:
From the minutes of the Cave and Crag Advisory Group meeting on the 23rd October 2008:

GM asked if the group would back cavers in trying to gain access to caves through the
CROW Act. JB reiterated this and said that there is a reluctance from cavers to do
anything about access in case the situation with landowners is made worse. He asked if
the group would be able to help break the barriers between users and landowners. AM
asked why caving had been excluded from the CROW Act. JB said that the BMC had
rallied hard to get climbing included in the Act but that the BCA, due to the lack of
members, hadn?t got their act together. JB added that under Section 16 of the CROW Act,
landowners can dedicate their land for other activities. This has the added benefit of
reducing the level of liability to the landowner. JB asked if the YDNPA and NE could
encourage this.

Think I posted something similar Peter on the other thread which is why I'm reluctant or at least pessimistic to have BCA or CNCC do this on behalf of the CRoW cave lobby.
 

bograt

Active member
Brains said:
I would suggest asking a short-ish question backed up with supplemenrary information. Meeting by the AOB stage tend to be a little... rushed? Pre circulation to the meetings attendees would also be a good thing.
"What are the LAF's views on caving on CRoW land?" could be one starting point of many...

Are you sure you are not confusing two meetings? the suggestion to raise the point in AOB was for the BCA AGM on the 16th June, this thread is about the LAF meeting on the 18th June, doe's anyone know if there is a deadline for agenda items for the latter?
 

blackholesun

New member
Yes, I think that Peter's question would be a good one.

The only, and minor, caveat is that in some people's minds, caving wouldn't fall under "open-air". In the context of CROW, I certainly think it does, but a little part of me would like not to put those two words actually in the question.

I think the deadline for questions is the 13th of June.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
I'm sure that I read on one of the other threads that it was assumed that the term 'open-air' recreation was simply a cover all title and not a specification in itself.
It would exclude the use of vehicles for instance.
I would say that there is a good case for seeing caving as an open-air recreational activity, especially when viewed in comparison to climbing. Our sport happens to take place out of sight though.
 

Stu

Active member
blackholesun said:
The only, and minor, caveat is that in some people's minds, caving wouldn't fall under "open-air". In the context of CROW, I certainly think it does, but a little part of me would like not to put those two words actually in the question.

As Peter said (though I'm no Petrocelli) there are too many analogies to other outdoor sports and much crossover of participation, for caving not to be considered "open air recreation". I agree it could royally backfire though. To my mind it is the strongest hand with which to play.
 

Stu

Active member
In light of the excellent find over on the other thread, maybe the question should be:

Does the LAF concur with N.E. that caving is an 'open-air' recreational activity within the definition of the CRoW Act and all caving on CRoW be recognised as not excepted and all that that implies?
 
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