Author Topic: feedback on the site  (Read 31293 times)

Offline graham

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2010, 03:09:29 pm »
The problem with all these ideas is that people come to a place like this for different reasons and they use it for different reasons. Thus any artificial method of trying to control posting rates will fail because it will simply be imposing a single, or at best a very narrow range, of reasons for posting on what is actually a diverse community.

Me, I come here for a variety of reasons, for information, news, gossip and many other things, depending on need, mood and inclination.

And I don't rabidly correct other people's spelling and grammar in their "carefully crafted" posts. The thing that started that long and rather silly thread was a light hearted two word comment on somebody else's one word and light-hearted post. The over-reaction was absurd and is, in my view, one thing that is definitely wrong with this place at present.
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Offline Hughie

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2010, 03:25:46 pm »
I like the + / - idea. If everybody thinks Peter spouts excessive shite, then it will rapidly demote his output. Or otherwise.

Chris.

With all respect, Chris (and Khakip.), it's a shite idea, and been tried before under the "karma" banner. Incredibly judgemental. The guys oop north took it quite seriously, whilst us southerners gave it the credit that it richly deserved. It didn't last long, thank goodness.

Wonder whatever happened to "New Phil"?

Still, it amused us for a while.  ;D













Offline langcliffe

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2010, 03:32:40 pm »
cap 'n chris     8463 posts
Peter Burgess    6841 posts
graham    6696 posts
bubba     2485 posts
paul     2194 posts
dickplaces  2009 posts
I said ACTIVE users - that's more difficult to assess.
That is very true, but the underlying point I was trying to make was a little more subtle.

Offline Elaine

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2010, 03:45:42 pm »
I don't like the + or - idea. It seems to much like being publicly judged. And is sure to have some inadvertant/deliberate bias behind the +'s and the -'s.
Some recent posts on this thread seem to imply that spelling and grammar criticism is a regular thing. I wasn't aware of that - maybe I don't read all of the threads.
And as to a list of all that I like about this forum;

Useful up to the minute information
Interesting reading
Some very funny posts
This little smiley thing    :bounce:
Wot tiny writing!

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2010, 03:47:45 pm »
cap 'n chris     8463 posts
Peter Burgess    6841 posts
graham    6696 posts
whitelackington     5645 posts
SamT     4544 posts
Les W     3052 posts
AndyF     2612 posts
bubba     2485 posts
paul     2194 posts
dickplaces  2009 posts

So how about making the same subjective assessment to all posters, regardless of how busy they are or have been? One of the worst crimes of modern journalism and comment is selecting statistics to suit your opinion.

Of this unpruned list (speaking objectively of those other than me), all have made valuable contributions, even the one under a control order. The loss of him of 2009 posts was, on balance I think, a loss to this forum. Lots of valuable, friendly and positive members went with him, either completely, or stopped posting nearly so often, much to the detriment of trip reports and the like. Surely the lesson to be learnt from pruning out those who don't fit is not that it encourages new growth, but that it causes further decay, while those who remain get more and more morose in their cosy little world, wondering where all the colour has gone to in their sad lives. First they went for the Jews, etc etc etc.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2010, 04:14:33 pm »
Godwin's Law kicks in, before this has even reached three pages. A new record?  :)

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2010, 04:50:38 pm »
Nazis were not the first to go for the Jews by a long chalk, Chris!

Offline exsumper

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2010, 05:12:25 pm »
Yes possibly a record?. Peter's allusion is a valid one though; there is too much moderation and censorship on this forum. I might not agree with a lot of W/L's views, but I don't think he should be under a control order. I also feel that  anonymous complaints shouldn't  be allowed either; If you don't like the post why not complain openly?.  Only today a joke of Chris JC's was removed, merely because it was a bit non PC. I probably wouldn't have liked it, and might have been offended.  Although I'd like to make my own mind up on that score please . Any attempt to limit the number of posts per person, would just make a nonsense of any debate.   
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Offline kay

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2010, 05:19:49 pm »
What I like about this forum:

Lots of cave info, and people who will answer questions. And search facility turning this into useful archive.
Ability to see new posts only (another forum I post to doesn't have this facility and it's a right pain)
Moderation - Rhys, who makes his moderation evident, and moderates with common sense (I'm not really aware of the other moderators as individuals)
Lots of general chat and argument - the general chat brings me here every day, which means I see the cave info a bit quicker. If it wasn't for the chat, then I might log on only every couple of weeks or so, or perhaps only when I had a specific question.
General lack of unpleasantness (this thread excepted), foul language for the sake of it, racial unpleasantness etc

Don't know if this is a technical possibility - is it possible to personalise your view so that  when you hit  'unread posts' you have the option of not being shown posts in "Idle chat"? Then if those of us who post a lot could be self-disciplined enough not to post "idle chat" type posts in the other areas, those people who would like to see this as a caving-only forum would see only the caving bit, while the rest of us could carry on chatting.
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Offline bubba

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2010, 05:44:38 pm »
How about a +/- button per user per post. So []for each post each user views they see a + and - button, they get one chance to click one of the buttons, once clicked the buttons disappear for that user for that post.

+ means the post is positive/contributing

- means the post is negative/detracting from the topic
As has been said, something similar was tried with the karma system. Unfortunately it quickly descended into childish tit-for-tat voting and so made the system useless.

How about the more you post the lighter and smaller your font becomes?
Why should somebody who posts a lot of good posts be penalised?

Don't know if this is a technical possibility - is it possible to personalise your view so that  when you hit  'unread posts' you have the option of not being shown posts in "Idle chat"? Then if those of us who post a lot could be self-disciplined enough not to post "idle chat" type posts in the other areas, those people who would like to see this as a caving-only forum would see only the caving bit, while the rest of us could carry on chatting.
It is possible to exclude certain boards as a feature of the forum software...but it won't be acceptable to the new owners. This is because when they introduce advertising you could just block all the advertisers posts at the same time.

One thing you can do however, is go to say, "Idle Chat", then use the box on the right to select all, then mark as read. You can then go back to the main unread posts page with those posts excluded. It's not a great solution but it works.

=:blubba:=

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Offline Goydenman

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2010, 06:20:51 pm »
I like the different categories that are now available.
I like technical tips and hearing news of finds.
I think the modertation is about right

Would like us all incl myself to tell others not just about finds but what sort of work we are doing.
Would like us all to encourage more people to join the forum and less people dominate it.
Would like members to talk more about possible ways to achieve win-wins that would influence the caving community in and beyond the forum in finding more cave (digging) and conserving them.

Offline anfieldman

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2010, 06:46:54 pm »
Personally I really like the forum. I don't post as much on here as I used to due to a number of reasons such as too much work to do (this equals less caving unfortunately) but I also feel that the majority of posts descend into childish arguments. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and people have to respect them, unless of course they are offensive, racist, homophobic etc which we have seen on here quite a few times.
Like many people I know a lot of the cavers on here personally but I also know a lot of other cavers who tell me that they cannot stand the forum and they have looked at it a few times and found it difficult to find the decent information amongst the bollocks.
Nowdays I have a quick look for any news (this is THE quickest place to find it in my opinion) and post the occasional comment but that is it.
The moderation is spot on I think and the Shit Heap is a good idea. I just wish some people would not insist on commenting on every thread thinking they are funny as fk.  If it wasn't for that there would be a lot more people on here.
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Offline kay

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2010, 07:41:17 pm »

It is possible to exclude certain boards as a feature of the forum software...but it won't be acceptable to the new owners. This is because when they introduce advertising you could just block all the advertisers posts at the same time.

One thing you can do however, is go to say, "Idle Chat", then use the box on the right to select all, then mark as read. You can then go back to the main unread posts page with those posts excluded. It's not a great solution but it works.

It's very obvious that there are a lot of people who don't like those of us who use ukc for idle chat. Equally, those of us who do chat, I think, value the facility. What if we all agreed to confine non-serious posts to "idle chat"? (if necessary, starting a new thread in "idle chat" to continue something that had originated elsewhere). Then the problem would be making it easy for people to avoid "idle chat" if they so wished.

Is it possible to use different fonts/highlighting for different areas? If the Idle Chat posts showed up differently in the least of "unread" then it would be easy to avoid. All you'd need then was for an easy way for the "idle chat" posts to disappear from the "unread"" list after a certain length of time...



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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2010, 07:45:16 pm »
If you don't like the post why not complain openly?.
That's what I do. But when I do, it's only my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with it, despite what a certain rude gentleman might say. The anglo-saxon abuse I and others get for doing so is par for the course. Fair enough. T'was always thus in the world of debate.

Offline teabag

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2010, 07:52:46 pm »
I usually use the site to read about new developments and what's going on in areas I'm interested in.  I rarely post but I use the site a lot.  I don't care if people want to use the site to chat, I am capable of just selecting the topics I am interested in from my unread topics and I enjoy the site as a whole.  I think there are probably lots of people like me but you won't hear from us - so you must be doing a good job.
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Offline khakipuce

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2010, 08:02:36 pm »
Kay,

personally I don't mind the idle chat and I think others are happy to ignore it. However it's a really annoying when it spills over into other topics. Some people just can't contain  themselves and have to pass judgement on absolutley everything.

In this thread http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,10687.msg138278.html#msg138278 Gerbil007 does a great trip report and shows that he is a real brave guy, not only for the caving but for having the guts to pour his heart out on here. And most of the comments were positive and encouraging, however the usual suspects had to make snide comments and nit pick. We can just do without it.

Offline kay

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2010, 08:17:11 pm »
Kay,

personally I don't mind the idle chat and I think others are happy to ignore it. However it's a really annoying when it spills over into other topics. Some people just can't contain  themselves and have to pass judgement on absolutley everything.


So if we idle chatters were to confine our chatting to "idle chat" you'd feel it was an improvement?

Quote

In this thread http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,10687.msg138278.html#msg138278 Gerbil007 does a great trip report and shows that he is a real brave guy, not only for the caving but for having the guts to pour his heart out on here. And most of the comments were positive and encouraging, however the usual suspects had to make snide comments and nit pick. We can just do without it.

Interesting the way different people see things differently. I've just had another quick read through this to see what you mean. There was definitely major thread drift after 12 posts (but that's pretty universal on the internet), and a good deal of flippancy - but I couldn't see anything that I'd regard as nit-picking or snidery. So which were the posts you disliked and why? I'm not trying to argue with you, just to understand what it is that so upsets people.
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Offline Anon

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2010, 08:48:24 pm »
Quote from: kay
So if we idle chatters were to confine our chatting to "idle chat" you'd feel it was an improvement?
Two points:
The regulars probably can confine chatting to idle chat, there are those that don't seem to have any understanding of where to post a certain topic, although the mods do a good job moving things (and the annoying "topic moved" post has been resolved) .
The other point being certain respectable topics end up getting dragged down by off-topic "idle chat" posting, moderation needed to split it before it gets out of hand, or worse left. Whilst I find this site has its uses for finding information there is sometimes a load of crap associated with a topic that somewhat detracts from the value of it.

Whilst I'm here may aswell have a say, generally site ok. Moderation ok, but see above point. I have spoken to some people that hold the view that the site is dominated by know it alls that insist on having an opinion on everything (their words, not mine) and as such not keen on using it.

I think Goydenman makes some good points in his post above.

Offline kay

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2010, 09:18:27 pm »

Two points:
The regulars probably can confine chatting to idle chat, there are those that don't seem to have any understanding of where to post a certain topic, although the mods do a good job moving things (and the annoying "topic moved" post has been resolved) .
The other point being certain respectable topics end up getting dragged down by off-topic "idle chat" posting, moderation needed to split it before it gets out of hand, or worse left.

That's why I was wondering whether "idle chatters" could help things by ourselves "splitting" posts - ie starting a new thread in idle chat and quoting the bit of the serious post we wanted to make a flippant comment on. If we can sort these things out ourselves, it's less of a burden for the mods.
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Offline graham

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2010, 09:40:56 pm »
There is a concept on one site I use of a "babble" thread, which is effectively an open ended chat thread that is renewed at regular periods. Seems to work well there. Mind there seems to be a lot less angst about off topic stuff and banter there than there is here.

One point I'd like to make is that a hell of a lot of people on here are good friends of mine, but I don't get to see them that often. However, when I do seem them, I don't just talk about caving. Is every conversation in the Hunter's about caving? No it is not. It may be what we have in common and what brings us together, but it is not the sole topic of our conversation. it is unlikely to be so here either.
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Offline khakipuce

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2010, 09:43:30 pm »
Kay,

Not really sure I want to get into this for many reasons, but since you asked nicely:

there is the comment about solo caving - first respone to the post

then there is the "stupid boy" comment.

then it descends into another hyphen, apostrophe, spelling debate

I know these were meant to be humorous and I guess Gerbil007 was not bothered but it just seems that certain people cannot just leave it out.  The accumulated cruft of comments that add nothing (and I suspect are just ego massage for the posters) are just distracting noise, the quality of the threads is degraded like a street covered in litter. I'm sure non of us are that bothered either way, just like we are not bothered enough to pick up the litter but we don't like seeing it.

As Nick Williams said earlier "it's about having respect for other people's point of view. It's about giving people space to express themselves".  It's about having the humility to accept that the other person's point of view may be valid and that you may not have understood their point. It's about not belittling or trivialising the contributions of others, or bullying, or sometimes just butting out when you have nothing to add.

I often start typing a reply and then just back out because I recognise I am not adding to the thread.

I know my suggestion of some form of user moderation has been thoroughly trashed, however one of the biggest and oldest surviving geek forums on the Web uses a very similar system and it works well. I can go to a discussion with 500 to a 1000 posts and be presented with only may be 50 that other users have moderated at the most interesting, informative or amusing comments on the thread. And it really does work (interesting the spelling/grammar stuff is pretty much always modded down to invisibility).

Offline graham

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2010, 09:49:11 pm »
khakipuce

What do you really expect people to say in a thread like that?

101 variants on "gosh weren't you brave isn't it lucky you got out alive" would make for splendidly dull reading and wouldn't add to anyone's knowledge of anything.

Are you saying that people shouldn't add comments? That would just look like no-one was interested; would that be better or worse for the author?
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Offline khakipuce

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2010, 09:56:19 pm »
See, I said I didn't really want to get into this.  There are plenty of good comments on there that aren't "gosh...".

It is a good chance for people to relate their solo caving experiences, share experience on things to think about when solo caving, how to calm down, knowledge of the particalur route ... in fact exactly what that thread contained without the litter.

I like Kay's idea that you guys just take it over to idle chat and link back to the thread.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2010, 10:00:51 pm »
We are all from different generations and backgrounds. What might appear to be a flippant comment to one group of people will be a friendly empathetic remark to another. One thing we should never get into is the fear of walking on eggshells, but also being aware of sensible boundaries. We might assume that someone just doesn't care when they make a casual comment, but 9 times out of 10, that probably isn't true. We are all guilty of reading things into other people's motives for posting stuff that just isn't there. I know when someone has got hold of the wrong end of the stick over things I write, but would they believe me if I said so? Experience tells me not so in recent weeks.

Offline Anon

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Re: feedback on the site
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2010, 10:02:35 pm »
Quote from: graham
One point I'd like to make is that a hell of a lot of people on here are good friends of mine, but I don't get to see them that often. However, when I do seem them, I don't just talk about caving. Is every conversation in the Hunter's about caving? No it is not. It may be what we have in common and what brings us together, but it is not the sole topic of our conversation. it is unlikely to be so here either.
I can see your point, but if I search for information on a particular cave or piece of equipment (or read an ongoing thread) I don't really want to trawl through idle chat between a couple of friends (chances are, none of whom I personally know!) and I'm sure others don't wish to either. I don't have an issue of it taking place in say, idle chat, but in the middle of a "what light" (just picked a random cave-related item) thread is well, not cricket!

Lets say you're in the Hunters, couple of people talking about the latest light and then you barge in and talk to your friend about his holidays and work for a bit (ignoring the other guys interest in this new light) before wandering off leaving them to pick up where they left off - assuming they haven't been distracted from their conversation..? Maybe it's me, but that's not what I would do.

Quote from: kay
That's why I was wondering whether "idle chatters" could help things by ourselves "splitting" posts -
Sounds reasonable to me..