Just wondering what people's impressions of taking under 18s caving is and if they had any questions on the topic? i.e. Do I need qualifications? A CRB?

Just warning you this may be a prelude to whether we need a BCA ad campaign...

As an under 18 caver myself I believe that caving is a sport for people of this age bracket and that at the moment more could be done to involve young people as I only discovered caving myself through scouting but thankfully a lot of info is availible online. I understand, however, that the underground is no place for the inexperienced or ill prepared so said young persons should either join a club (Very difficult if you are under 18 by the way) or ensure you are properley informed and prepared before attempting any trips under your own steam. Also, I am glad that the BCA offers membership to people of my age and that it does seem to be aware that we make exist.

Impressions of taking under 18's caving...

Well, it's been a while but when my daughter was younger we would on occasion go away to a caving hut in the school holidays, usually with one or two of her friends and have a grand time. I'm not a hard caver so mostly trips on the easier side mixed with surface activities.

I count myself lucky that it seems we experienced the last of the times where this could be done on a relatively carefree basis. The friends parents of course knew what we were going to be doing but no forms were filled in etc. no particular arrangements were made with caving huts beyond asking whether they minded children staying at that time.

My impression is that the things we did would still be possible but with a little more paperwork and permissions in place.

In terms of the actual caving (albeit was mostly in mines) generally we had a great time, hot chocolate in flasks seemed to be the most crucial factor 

I find this interesting. By the age of 18 I had done a fair bit of caving having started at 14 more than 50 years ago. By the time I had left school I had done my first (abortive) dive in a cave. Laid a charge to blast open new cave and bottomed several Mendip caves. I did this without really being a club - just my dad, me and a couple of friends. My father got into caving because I wanted to do it. We certainly shouldn't be preventing the younger generation from taking it up. As a doctor I feel we should be doing our bit to counter the obesity crisis.

Many caving parents take their kiddies caving.

There has been the following topic earlier

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=16167.msg212690#msg212690

The link jumps directly to a post of me where I explain how the VVS (flemisch caving federation) works.  We have a very good youth group that take young kids (as from 12years or even younger in some cases) underground on special youth week-end and caving holidays

If the child is accompanied by a parent or someone to act in loco parentis then the child can go caving in the carefree way they always have, as ttxela2 describes above.

For example the Wessex recognises this. Children of club members can join as junior members, for free, at any age but they must be accompanied by their parent or legal guardian. Once they get to 16 they can cave with the club unaccompanied with the parents permission.

It is the children without a caving parent who are left out. Most clubs are unwilling to go through all the steps necessary to mitigate their liability in the face of increasingly onerous legislation. However I believe there are a few clubs out there that will. The scouts are another option or there are commercial providers.

I do believe that someone needs to act in loco parentis and  should be someone the parents trust.

I take my son, who will be 14 in February, caving often. So far we've been on about 50 trips. He is comfortable with SRT and has done some classic trips up to grade 4 in both the Dales and South Wales, as well as trips in Derbyshire, the Forest of Dean, and on Mendip. I have three older children who have all tried it several times, but he has really taken to it. 

David Rose said:

I take my son, who will be 14 in February, caving often. So far we've been on about 50 trips. He is comfortable with SRT and has done some classic trips up to grade 4 in both the Dales and South Wales, as well as trips in Derbyshire, the Forest of Dean, and on Mendip. I have three older children who have all tried it several times, but he has really taken to it.

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What's the plan for when you get injured and he is unable to rescue you? Good stuff! I'm just curious about this aspect in your opinion, no judgements from me.

The TSG now accepts Junior Members, subject to certain conditions - in the rare case that a child doesn't have caving parents and wants to join, the parents can designate someone to act in loco, as far as I remember. We incorporated a Child Protection Officer onto the Committee in order to facilitate all this, but it hasn't been especially onerous so far.

I am really not sure it would be as onerous as many people think for a club to take anyone U18 caving for free. It can be a hassle for instructors, as part of a commercial activity, to take U18s underground (relative to adults) but really for a voluntary organisation abiding by any reasonable CP procedure it should be pretty easy to take an U18 underground with parents permission. I can't think of steps further than this that any club would need to reduce their liability (not that they have much) other than having the necessary insurance.

Some things that might make the entrance of U18s to the sport easier:
1. Proper education for clubs about the extent of their liabilities and perhaps a checklist of what they need (it really isn't that onerous)
2. Removing unjustifiable age limitations from permit processes (more relevant in the south I suspect)
3. Supporting further the club's that already exist that encourage young people into caving (scout caving teams etc)


I don't think people's experiences taking their kids out are particularly relevant: that's very easy and those kids are probably going to get into it anyways if they want to.

Topimo, that is a sensible question. When he was a beginner, we often did do trips with just the two of us, but we tended to be in caves with other visitors (Swildon's One, for example) where I felt confident. As he has got more experienced and able to tackle more challenging objectives, we almost always go underground in larger groups, so the question does not arise. On the rare occasions when we do go on our own nowadays (just once in about 15 trips this year) I carry a Vango shelter so at least we would be able to keep warm while awaiting help. But generally I try to avoid doing this.

Sounds considered. I hope he keeps going!

Other European countries are so far ahead of the UK it's shocking. The villain of the piece is the archaic structure of our bodies, combined with a standoffishness towards professional tuition and youth centre work. British caving as it presently stands is probably presiding over its own extinction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFdJlBRzwpM&sns=em

2xw said:

Some things that might make the entrance of U18s to the sport easier:
1. Proper education for clubs about the extent of their liabilities and perhaps a checklist of what they need (it really isn't that onerous)

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This would be useful. As a club, we are hoping to start organising more "family weekends" where small-person-friendly trips can be run and club-member families stay at the hut. We're not 100% sure though what steps legally need to be taken in relation to safeguarding and liability, etc....

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CatM said:

2xw said:

Some things that might make the entrance of U18s to the sport easier:
1. Proper education for clubs about the extent of their liabilities and perhaps a checklist of what they need (it really isn't that onerous)

Click to expand...

This would be useful. As a club, we are hoping to start organising more "family weekends" where small-person-friendly trips can be run and club-member families stay at the hut. We're not 100% sure though what steps legally need to be taken in relation to safeguarding and liability, etc....

Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

I'll send you a PM CatM with a bit of information which you might find useful.

I was taught how to cave by clubs I became a member of from a very early age and I'm convinced this is the best way to learn. As a child I was looked after extremely well. I don't think any problem of encouraging youngsters is related to not hiring instructors. It's more because successive governments have "solved" child protection concerns by creating extra bureaucracy. This puts some clubs off dealing with youngsters, as they take the easy option (of just accepting members from age 18 onwards). But, as has been mentioned above, when you get down to it the process is actually not that complicated.

I share concerns by Chris to some extent about the future for British caving but I don't agree with all of his post. I did take the time to watch that video and I was a bit surprised to see that those children appear to be encouraged to complete exercises competitively. (Notice how one or two rushed off the rope to slap the box, then relaxed.) If such an approach to caving were to be transferred underground, that would be real cause for concern (safety, conservation, etc).

New cavers have been ably looked after by clubs in the UK for over a Century (the YRC, for example, having been formed in Victorian times). Caving has thrived during this long period, surviving national crises such as wars. Modern professional instruction does provide a valuable service to the caving community in some circumstances. (I've hired instructors myself in the past, when it's been the best of several options). But caving has fared very well as an amateur activity and I'd not like to see that change substantially. However, more clubs need to be willing to jump through the (not very complicated) hoops which they perceive to get in the way of introducing youngsters to caving. Apart from helping to ensure a healthy future for our pastime (or way of life?) it can be great fun too!

Pitlamp said:

I did take the time to watch that video and I was a bit surprised to see that those children appear to be encouraged to complete exercises competitively. (Notice how one or two rushed off the rope to slap the box, then relaxed.) If such an approach to caving were to be transferred underground, that would be real cause for concern (safety, conservation, etc).

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People generally, and children in particular, respond favourably to competitiveness: Hidden Earth has numerous timed competitive caving tasks for example.

I do not share Pitlamp's rosy view about how well British caving is faring.

Chris, how many kids do you think are professionally lead down Goatchurch each year?

How would that figure compare to any scheme targeted at kids that BCA might run?

Cap'n Chris said:

People generally, and children in particular, respond favourably to competitiveness: Hidden Earth has numerous timed competitive caving tasks for example.

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This might well be true for most people - I have no reason to believe that its not. Personally I've never been too much of a fan of competitive games, especially so as a child.

I much prefer to measure myself against my own previous performance, this may well be because it's been abundantly clear throughout that most people are much better at stuff than I am 

This is partly why I enjoy little solo trips so much, I can turn around and head out for tea and buns when I want without disappointing anyone and still be convinced I had a grand trip.

I suspect some youngsters will feel the same?