There have been two fatal caving accidents in the UK during December this year. On both occasions discussion threads have been immediatley locked. I agree that wild discussion and speculation is a bad idea and that relatives have to be inforned first, but I do have some concerns about having a total blackout. A situation where the normal press is the only information source seems strange.

Following the accident in Manchester Hole there was a more relaxed attitude and a significant amount of discussion took place on this forum. My point is that I LEARNED something during that discussion which could have been important to my own safety and the safety of my companions. Yet the inquest didn't actually take place until two years after the accident. Two years is a long time for important safety information to come out.

I think it's also reasonable to release the names of people who die in caving accidents (obviously only after relatives have been informed). A lot of people often like to write condolences and short obituaries and that seems to be to be perfectly reasonable.

So why a total blackout? If we can't trust the forum users to be sensible, why not allow discussion and the release of information under a moderated form?

I think an open discussion of policy would be useful.

Mark

I agree with all you have said, the whole point of a forum is discussion without artificial limits.

However, the forum can be read by other people such as the relatives of the deceased and more worryingly journalists.

Depending how a discussion goes, or how sensible the contributions are there is the potential to find 'critical but constructive comments' (or even stupid ones) being misconstrued as 'even their peers thought they were... ***' to make some artificial or contrived point about how dangerous caving is and how irresponsible we all are yada-yada...

Certainly a discussion of any unforseen hazards that may have contributed to an incident and that would serve as a useful warning to us would be of use. Expressions of condolence and perhpas obituaries would also not be out of place here I think.

Of course this all pre-supposes that all discussion will be sensible and considerate - I'd like to think that that would always be the case here on UKC.

On balance I agree with Mark as well.

There are risks to allowing such a conversation, but there are also risks in not allowing the conversation.

There are lessons to be learnt and it would be an even greater tragedy if they weren't.

Journalists do and will find these postings. It is up to all to post sensibly with that in mind.

In the past when someone has got out of line this community has been good at policing itself. If all that fails we are lucky enough to have active and involved moderators.

I'm with Mark on this too...

It seems odd and a bit bizarre that I can get more information about an event from the web page of the Buxton Advertiser than here on a caving forum.

Journos are often critisized for gettng facts and stories wrong, it seems odd to throttle them from a potential source of reasoned debate and discussion.

I have heard, and can understand that CRO do not publicly voice any view on an incident, but I don't think that silencing the rest of us achieves anything positive, and potentially leads to worse idle speculation and rumour.

Agree with what has been said above.. Sensible posts should be allowed - anything off topic or unsuitable could quite easily and quickly be removed by the mods.
If lessons can be learnt from having discussions and thus perhaps preventing a future accident then surely that is a good thing to have?

Journos are often critisized for gettng facts and stories wrong,

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The most recent incident highlights that fact about confusion over cave names.

I also agree with the above. Although the people who use this forum are known for arguing over nothing and making silly remarks, I like to think that all of us have the sensitivity to know when this is appropriate and when it isn't.

I would expect that the vast majority of people who read and contribute to topics relating to fatalities are doing so for valid reasons - to learn from the misfortunes of others, to offer their condolences and to seek information.

Although I fully understand why names have not been given out yet in the most recent case, I think it should be ukcaving policy to name cavers who have had fatal accidents as soon as possible. For people who cave as part of a large community, it is very worrying to hear that 'a male from x or y' has died. I personally will be feeling on edge until I know whether or not it was one of the many people I know and I expect a lot of other cavers will be in the same situation.

Presumably, this forum merely needs someone with some facts to post them, then.

So this person could PM Cap'n'Chris or another mod with some facts, which they could add to the locked topic?

Chris.

Or maybe start a new topic called something like "Facts about such-and-such".

cap 'n chris said:

Or maybe start a new topic called something like "Facts about such-and-such".

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No, please don't do that, it'll just complicate things

There is no official forum policy regarding the reporting of fatalities.

It's a tough call sometimes, but here's my thoughts...

In the immediate aftermath of an accident I think it's prudent to lock a topic that gets into the territory of discussing cause/blame/etc before any facts are known. This is to stop any speculation or incorrect facts being published here and leading to the spread of such incorrect information and also to prevent any witch hunts or unnecessary suffering to friends/relatives of the deceased.

I also think it's also a good idea to lock down discussion until the identities of the victims have been revealed by a trusted source (eg the police/somebody we know who was there/etc) and also that we are sure that the next of kin have been informed. For instance I don't think that a worried relative should read of their loved ones demise on this forum before they have been informed through the usual channels.

In the case of the recent Giants Hole accident we had reason to believe that it would be prudent to lock discussion as there may have been legal issues arrising from the accident.

In the case of today's accident, the topic was locked on the request of a forum user, but also it remains locked because as far as I know, the identies of the two victims have not yet been publically released.

I'd just like to chuck into this discussion that we may not be discussing it on here, but they are elsewhere, eg the Daily Mail blog. Our discussion would, I hope, be a little better informed.

kay said:

I'd just like to chuck into this discussion that we may not be discussing it on here, but they are elsewhere, eg the Daily Mail blog. Our discussion would, I hope, be a little better informed.

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Extremely good point.

Surely an ill-informed discussion elsewhere doesn't equate to a green light for an ill-informed discussion here?

Hi all, sorry for the late reply to this, but yesterday was a bit hectic.

By about 9:15 yesterday morning I had received three 'phone calls from the press asking for information about the cave and the conditions at the time of the incident. I gave my stock reply, "please speak to the police or the CRO",but it was apparent that these people were trawling the internet looking for anything they could find to build a picture of what could have happened. I also received some calls from cavers who had also been contacted by the press, so as there seemed to be a manic press interest in this, I was concerned that the press may pick up on some well meaning, but maybe misinformed speculation from this forum. So I requested that this topic be locked. And it was - many thanks for that.

As of yesterday evening, there was still an embargo on releasing the names of the deceased as not all family members had been contacted.

I would now add, that I mostly agree with Mark's (and others) comments earlier in this thread, and that in general I am against censorship, but I think in instances like this (caving fatalities) there should be a period of time before we speculate on what may or may not have happened so that the press can not use that information out of context.

Thanks,

Glenn

Once the identities of the victims have been revealed and their next of kin informed then we can discuss it on here, and not before.

Why should what happens on the Daily Mail blog be of any interest to me? Tabloids talking crap? Whatever next

bubba said:

Once the identities of the victims have been revealed and their next of kin informed then we can discuss it on here, and not before.

Why should what happens on the Daily Mail blog be of any interest to me? Tabloids talking crap? Whatever next

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Two of the three 'phone calls mentioned earlier were from tabloids, and their approach was alarming! The third call was from The Times (is that a tabloid now?) who was much more reasoned, but still wanted a story...

Glenn

Glenn said:

By about 9:15 yesterday morning I had received three 'phone calls from the press asking for information about the cave and the conditions at the time of the incident. I gave my stock reply, "please speak to the police or the CRO",but it was apparent that these people were trawling the internet looking for anything they could find to build a picture of what could have happened. I also received some calls from cavers who had also been contacted by the press, so as there seemed to be a manic press interest in this

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This is exactly what i'm on about - the press will trawl everything online and will attempt to contact people using devious methods - it happened to me and others during the Mexico rescues a few years back and it will always happen after an accident like this.

Tabloids unfortunately 'inform' a sizeable portion of the population.

OK, I take Glenn's point, and glad to hear from Bubba that the topic will be unlocked some time in the future.

But it riles me to see factual inaccuracies in the press, and even more so when the implication is to cast doubt on caving as  pursuit.

kay said:

But it riles me to see factual inaccuracies in the press

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Why? That's what the press is for. Surely no-one believes what they read in the papers.

Curiosity and a desire to discuss such incidents are only natural...
As I have been down Giants more times than i care to remember i'd be very interested in hearing about the circumstances of the accident there...for two reasons
Firstly to reassure my wife who now thinks I am going to kill myself everytime I go underground
Secondly in case there is anything that I can learn from what occured in case anything similar happened to me, or anyone with me in the future.
It does seem strange I found out more from The Buxton Advertiser than here at UKCaving.com