New Caves of the Peak District guidebook

will you be buying a new copy of Caves of the Peak District

  • yes

    Votes: 114 96.6%
  • no

    Votes: 4 3.4%

  • Total voters
    118

Iain Barker

Member
Hi all,

well, as you're all aware it's eighteen years since the last edition came out and even if you are lucky enough to get hold of a copy it is now very much out of date.

John Beck and myself have spent the last (four?!) years editing a new edition, bigger, more surveys, photo's, better in every way. The snag is that Dalesman who did virtually all the "official" caving guides doesn't want anything to do with caving anymore. What with the current economic crises causing many publishers to sit on thier hands and wait for improvement, finding a good new publisher for the book has been an imense task. We now have one interested, Francis Lincoln. This company publishes the Wainwright walking guides and the Pouchers. That's a good enough track record for me. This will be new ground for Francis Lincoln's if they do decide to produce it; they have never done a caving guide before.

Now here's the rub; How do I convince this company that there is a demand for a new edition of Caves of the Peak District? Is it needed - will it sell?

Over to you - post your comments please.
 

Iain Barker

Member
Yes, we looked into those guys and decided it would have to be a last resort. Basically it seems to be an updated vesion of vanity publishing.
And of course, you have to find storage, organise uk-wide distribution and all the rest. I don't think you even get the services of an editor to pass a fresh pair of eyes over your product.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Pretty much on the nail, there, Ian, but it does have the advantage that you don't have to take any chances with print runs, other than to best guess the initial demand for the book and organise your own distribution but that wouldn't be too hard.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I have used lulu for several years now. Of late they have had an appalling stretch of dreadful customer service. They have a users' forum which is pretty much left alone by lulu and has some interesting threads on it. I have decided to slowly move away from lulu. This will take some time, and there will still be things I want to do through them. Yes, there are 'vanity publishers' on there. If I tell you I have ordered some 1000 copies of my own books, 1000 on behalf of a mining trust, and used them for our club journal without too much trouble, you can see that I have made reasonably good use of them.

I am eyeing up a UK printer (not a publisher) for small print runs - I will remain the publisher, and merely upload PDFs to them for printing. In today's world it is very easy to publish in your own right without a huge commitment.

For my existing books, I have had a quote for a print run as low as 50, and got a good price. They offer A5 and A4 only, but the paper quality seems a lot better than Lulu offer (although the order of 1000 was good quality - Snailbeach Lead Mine by Shropshire Mines Trust, if you know it).

The printer is www.inkylittlefingers.co.uk, and they will send a good sample pack free of charge so you can make a judgement on the quality of the paper and printing they offer. I have not yet placed an order with them, but will be doing so in the next few months. As yet, I cannot write from experience, but on the whole so far I like what I have seen.


If the publishing side of things seems a bit daunting, PM me and I'll fill you in with more details.
 
Who were the publishers of Not for the Faint Hearted?
I am pretty sure the demand for that would have been significantly less...yet I was literally bowled over by the quality of production...its a delight to own and miles ahead of any of the regional guidebooks I own.
 

owd git

Active member
have you contacted dave mitchell @ scarthin books ? he has some experifnce in publishing . he also has a hankering for the odd mine / cave in the past, and maintains keenly interested. just a thought, may prove fruitfull. i'll nip round and sow the seed of an idea if you all,(all!) show interest on line it would show what interest there is.good luck. p.s. i came across apostin of 'a new cave' winster way a while ago, any news? thanks o g 
 

graham

New member
With the best will in the world, demand for these kind of books will never match that of the latest Dan Brown. There is probably quite a sound commercial reason why UK caving guides don't get reprinted very often these days (Mendip Underground 1999, CoPD 1991, Northern Caves 1821) but, on the other hand I know that the Wexses are very happy with the response to the Swildon's book & the UBSS have covered their costs & more from CoCCSG. I would reckon that with a little research to estimate what the demand over, say, five years might be and a little work to ensure that the format is what cavers in that area are looking for then a self-publishing job by an appropriate body of Derbyshire cavers should at least cover costs, if not make a profit.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I just ran up a quick online quote

Quantity 50

Price  ?213.18 

This is for the highest quality cover / pages available on the online calculator.

200 page A5 perfect bound books.
300gsm covers printed full colour outside, BLANK inside with no laminate.
120gsm bright white inner pages printed black and white throughout with no bleeds.
PDF proof.
Despatched 5 working days after you approve your proof.
Free delivery to a standard UK Mainland address.
VAT not included (booklets are normally zero rated).
Paper is smooth white matt and FSC approved. 

They also do coil bound volumes, which might be better for a field guide?

Quantity 50

Price  ?221.72   

THESE PRICES ARE FOR:-
A5 sized wire bound documents.
Bound on the long edge.
Black coloured wires.
Front cover printed in full colour outside, blank inside on 300 gsm paper.
Front cover
Clear protector sheet on the front (acetate).
Rear Cover printed in full colour outside, blank inside on 300 gsm paper.
Inner pages printed on 120 gsm paper.
0 color pages.
200 B/W pages.
Inside pages not printed to the edge (bled).
PDF proof.
Despatched 7 working days after you approve your proof.
Free delivery to a standard UK Mainland address.
This item has been zero rated for VAT as it is a bound document.
Paper is smooth white matt and FSC approved.

 

Brains

Well-known member
I have the "current" CoPD and the one before it, in a tasteful faded pink cover! I would certainly buy another edition - a decent book is so much better for pawing at in the pub and finding overlooked gems to visit. Do you want a count of purchasers? Put me down for a copy please!
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
Sorry I can`t suggest an instant alternative to the publisher you have spent so much time wooing. I hate to seem unhelpful! But I do guarantee to buy a copy of your book from whichever publisher you eventually use.
 

AndyF

New member
Id agree with the comment of "why need a publisher"...

The outlets for this book are small in number (caving/outdoor shops/tourist info etc.) you probably know them already, so it doesn't need distribution in the normal sense

The up front costs of printing are relatively low these days.

You could probably set up a paypal order in advance, get a discount sort of thing. Once a certain level is reached, then go to print on that basis.

Do you know the print run of the last CopD???

I'll certainly be buying a copy BTW!
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Add me to the list too.

If you publish yourself, rather than through a third party, and you want the book to have an ISBN, you will need to purchase this. The more you buy, the cheaper they are. I bought 10 for ?100. A single one costs over ?30 I seem to recall. If it doesn't have an ISBN you might find it more difficult to sell through book shops. (local books shelves of Waterstones, for example). Mike Moore will sell anything, though, ISBN or not.
 

Armchair

New member
If funding allows, don't even think about skimping on production: a quality book is a quality book, especially after an eighteen year gap. Keep the size of the run realistic with an option for reprinting in the contract; Lincoln's sound perfect. That's four sold, by the way.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I agree about the quality. Small print runs do not equate to low quality. Digital printing methods have come on leaps and bounds in recent years. Offset litho is still cheaper for large runs, but it is no longer the only option for quality. A digital printer does not need an option for a second print run. Provided you have kept the PDF file safe, all you have to do is send it a second time for a second batch, as good and as cheap as the first batch.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
I'll have 1 and I can expect another 8 - 10 sales from my centre alone, not to mention others in the Darkside. Add to that all the other professional cavers in the area with more than just a proffesional interest....
 
R

rocky

Guest
I cant offer any advice on the matter but speaking as just an occasional caver Ive been looking forward to my copy for ages.
Seems a bit short sighted of dalesman who must have made a few quid out of cavers over the years.
You've probably got a best seller on your hands there  ;)

Put me down for one

rocky
 

owd git

Active member
eyup iain, re- earlier post. dave mitchell on hol's now, try in weeks time, he does publish a limited amount via scarthin books, and is a mine of information on too many topics to be overlooked cheers and good luck. o g
 
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